The New Covenant

[CharismaticLady]

Hi CharismaticLady,

The new covenant/agreement still contains all the same commandments which were in the old covenant/agreement. That explains why many people attempt to affirm nine of the Ten Commandments by saying they are restated in the new covenant/agreement. Unfortunately this belief doesn't play out as one of the nine is clearly missing.

The fact that Jesus supplies a spiritual rest for His followers does not over turn the physical rest He provides in the observance of His holy day. If one is to be consistent and coherent in their application of this peculiar belief then one would have to conclude that one no longer needs food or water based on Jesus's claims about hunger and thirst. However that is not what those who use this line of "reasoning" do. They cherry pick the part they wish to apply and then throw out the rest. ::BOOM!:: ?





The law was never meant to be a method of salvation. Its purpose is simply to point out sin. Sin, if unforgiven, results in death.

Romans 5:12-14​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—​

​

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.​

​

Romans 6:23​

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

The law is not sin. It's what identifies sin. Perhaps because you believe the law has been abolished that's why you consider yourself sinless? Answer me this. If there is no longer any law which condemns people as sinners, shouldn't everyone be going to heaven? There's no need for Jesus in this sin-ario. Everyone born after the cross is perfect and don't need a Savior.

Romans 3:19-20​

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.​

If you are living by the Spirit then you are not "under the law." That makes perfect sense because the Spirit will not direct you to go against one of heaven's precepts. However, when you let go of the Spirit and live according to the flesh you place yourself back under the authority of the law.

Galatians 5:16-26​

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But IF you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​

So again I say, since there is no law, you, me, and everyone you see is sinless. What need does anyone have for Jesus other than perhaps an escalator ride to heaven? There is certainly no need for a Savior in the tunnel of your vision.





I suggest you examine this passage of Scripture again and then ask yourself, "What does it plainly say was the glory that was passing away?"

I pray this helps.

I've already explained why the Ten Commandments are only related to the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. There are two ways to look at sinlessness. You alluded to the heretical one, and I agree that is not biblical:

1. There is no law, so we can do what we like and our sins are not counted against us. Heresy!!!
2. Jesus takes away the desire to sin out of our nature making us new creatures who keep the righteous requirements of the law. Thus we do not need a written law to do what comes naturally to the divine nature Jesus plants in us. We walk by the Spirit, not the flesh. We do not need a commandment to not murder someone, because we don't hate. But someone under the law who keeps the law, wouldn't murder someone either, but they would have no power to not hate them.

This is why the whole written laws were abolished, and replaced with the eternal laws of LOVE by the SPIRIT.

I don't know about you but I let my body rest everyday. And so do atheists. Is is really enough to rest once a week? The 4th commandment is about faith in God - rest in God. Physical rest is just an object lesson for the spiritual rest we need in God. And that is what Jesus came to do. We no longer have to struggle to be righteous or to not sin. The desire to sin is dead in His followers. Unfortunately, being born again is an absolute religious experience. It is not just something that you just have to believe by faith. You know it when it happens to you. Plus you are given supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Icyspark]

I've already explained why the Ten Commandments are only related to the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. There are two ways to look at sinlessness. You alluded to the heretical one, and I agree that is not biblical:

1. There is no law, so we can do what we like and our sins are not counted against us. Heresy!!!
2. Jesus takes away the desire to sin out of our nature making us new creatures who keep the righteous requirements of the law. Thus we do not need a written law to do what comes naturally to the divine nature Jesus plants in us. We walk by the Spirit, not the flesh. We do not need a commandment to not murder someone, because we don't hate. But someone under the law who keeps the law, wouldn't murder someone either, but they would have no power to not hate them. [I'm pretty sure you're saying you're sinless, and I'm pretty sure you're not--especially as you intentionally trample on the Lord's day.]

This is why the whole written laws were abolished, and replaced with the eternal laws of LOVE by the SPIRIT.

I don't know about you but I let my body rest everyday. [Sleeping is not the sort of rest which Jesus supplies in His seventh day Sabbath. His rest is to set aside your works just as He set the example. So no, you don't "rest everyday" in the way the Sabbath commands.] And so do atheists. [Nope.] Is is really enough to rest once a week? [Wow! That sounds rather blasphemous as you are challenging God's methods and motives, not me or mine.] The 4th commandment is about faith in God - rest in God. Physical rest is just an object lesson for the spiritual rest we need in God. [This sounds like a very post-modern assessment, elevating your opinion above what God clearly says. What spiritual rest do animals acquire from humans observing the Sabbath?] And that is what Jesus came to do. We no longer have to struggle to be righteous or to not sin. [Really? The author of Hebrews indicates that there continues to be a "struggle against sin." James agrees and admonishes that we are to "resist the devil."] The desire to sin is dead in His followers. Unfortunately, being born again is an absolute religious experience. It is not just something that you just have to believe by faith. You know it when it happens to you. Plus you are given supernatural gifts of the Spirit. [Speaking in tongues is a lesser gift and not everyone is given this gift, nor do they get to choose which gifts the Spirit imparts to them.]

Hi CharismaticLady,

Because you just blue passed most of the substance of my previous post, let me ask a few post apoplectic questions:

1. Do you agree that without the written word you wouldn't know whether the spirit within you was affirming truth or error?
2. Do you agree that the law is what identifies sin?
3. Do you agree that sin, if unforgiven, results in death?
4. Do you agree that without the law that no one is a sinner?
5. Do you agree that without the law you wouldn't know what coveting really is?
6. Do you agree with Paul that it is "through the law that we become conscious of sin"?
7. Do you agree that consistency demands that if you reject the physical rest that the Sabbath supplies that you must likewise reject physical food and water based on the same implausible premise?
8. Do you agree that the law was never meant as a method of salvation?
9. Do you agree that if you break the law that you are not being "led by the Spirit"?
10. Do you agree that the glory that was passing away in 2 Corinthians 3:7 was not the law, but rather the glory on the face of Moses?

I pray this helps.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Icyspark, I am a dedicated Christian who has studied about the Sabbath and Covenants ever since I left the SDA denomination when I was 23. Over the next 30 years, I had to go over it time and again, to make sure I was pleasing in God's sight. I would have gone back to keeping the Sabbath if I thought it was a sin not to. Each time I studied this subject, the Spirit taught me something new, until now I can teach. Let me tell you, I am not telling you to not keep the Sabbath (Saturday) if you truly from your conscience believe your need to. God will honor you for keeping the laws on your own conscience. By the way, I still love Choplets! I even have a recipe! And I love the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. What I hate are the false doctrines that are apathetic to sin from the Reformation that has infiltrated most denominations, actually including SDA, having to do with the reason Jesus came and what He accomplished. I've actually left all denominations after being in four. The Truth is we have to be righteous and holy from a new nature to enter heaven. Not by keeping laws with our carnal willpower, Romans 7:13; Romans 8:1-9 We MUST be born again, having been baptized with the Holy Spirit of God. And I mean literally, supernaturally, by experience. Not just theologically by belief, but with no evidence.

Do you agree that without the written word you wouldn't know whether the spirit within you was affirming truth or error?

Yes. The Holy Spirit does not contradict His word.

Do you agree that the law is what identifies sin?

Not anymore. Whatever is not of faith is sin. There are those keeping old laws by faith, when it was no longer a sin, but God honors them for obeying their conscience. But if they went ahead and went against their conscience it would be a sin TO THEM, even if not a law.

Do you agree that sin, if unforgiven, results in death?

Yes. All unbelievers will die.

Do you agree that without the law that no one is a sinner?

Sin was always here ever since Adam willfully sined, but God did not impute sin before the law. It was because of transgressions (already being committed) that God gave the Law. But, even God has His limits. Sin/wickedness was the reason God killed all those in the flood BEFORE the written law. Those outside the line of Seth were hybrids of demons, themselves and had to be destroyed. Demonic races were also the reason God wanted the children of Israel to destroy whole nations.

Galatians 3:19
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.

As you see the law was only to guard us UNTIL Jesus should come. What did Jesus do about the sin nature we inherited from Adam that made the covenant of the written law null and void? That is the crux of the whole New Covenant. If you don't know this, you will be only focused on the Old Covenant, and miss our freedom.

Do you agree that without the law you wouldn't know what coveting really is?

The definition, yes. Do you covet still? I do not.

Do you agree with Paul that it is "through the law that we become conscious of sin"?

It certainly did for me. It was what brought me on my knees to Christ. Now I have Christ.

Do you agree that consistency demands that if you reject the physical rest that the Sabbath supplies that you must likewise reject physical food and water based on the same implausible premise?

Your body must be completely warn out if you only rest for 24 hours out of 168! That one physical day is the LETTER of the law. The New Covenant is under the SPIRIT of the law and our rest is EVERYDAY. God assigned a new day, "Today." Hebrews 4:7. The Spirit indwells us all the time, and I rest, called abiding, in Him, and He in Me. 1 John 3:21-24. That text shows the commandments of Jesus.

Do you agree that the law was never meant as a method of salvation?

Yes, again, Galatians 3:19. It was merely a tutor, like kindergarten with object lessons and the tip of the iceberg toward righteousness. Jesus cured the NEED for the written illustrative Law.

Do you agree that if you break the law that you are not being "led by the Spirit"?

The Spirit makes our conscience super-sensitized, and makes it very easy to obey the eternal laws of God written thereon that are now part of the divine nature.

Do you agree that the glory that was passing away in 2 Corinthians 3:7 was not the law, but rather the glory on the face of Moses?

No. What you don't understand is that the Ten Commandments were fashioned AFTER the true eternal laws of God, but could never come up to their level for us to be completely righteous or holy. The Ten Commandments were holy, but what the true problem was they were in opposition to the sin nature, thus making them weak. Jesus came and destroyed our sin nature by His invading Spirit, and the true eternal laws of Loving God with all our heart, mind and body, and loving our neighbor as ourselves became part of us. That includes abiding in Jesus and He in us as our true Sabbath rest. It is no longer of the letter, but of the Spirit.

The Ten Commandments was the Old Covenant, Exodus 34:28 and represented Ishmael, the son of Abraham's flesh, not promise. Galatians 4:22-36. The New Covenant represents Isaac. Ishmael is to be cast out. Our promise is freedom for the desire to sin in the first place. John 8:32-36

 

[ontheBeam]

Hi Charismatic Lady, I commend you for your answers to sparks questions. The Lord has surely blessed you with much insight. One question made me ☺. Several years ago, I presented spark with 2Cor3:7-11. At that time, he dismissed the fact that Paul so plainly wrote that the 10 commandments are no longer our guide and they were temporary. His answer to Paul's statement was that the verses were pertaining to Joshua's building an alter. Josh 8: 30 Then Joshua built an altar unto the Lord God of Israel in mount Ebal, 31 As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings. 32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Now spark wants you to agree that the verses in 2Cor are referring to Moses' face. He just cannot face the fact that Paul was stating that the 10 commandments were done away verse 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. KJV

What remains is Jesus' gift to all mankind, the gift of indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts guiding all mankind. Israel's guide was the temporary 10 commandments or as the NIV states; And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

I have presented 2Cor 3:6-11 to all of the SDAs I have ever posted with and all have denied Paul was referring to the 10 commandments. Most have referred me to all the verses that contain the word "commandments" and telling me Paul couldn't have meant there in 2Cor that the 10 were done away because there are so many verses telling us, we have to keep the commandments. The thing is that none of all those verses never have "10" in them. 1jn 19-24, as you have pointed out, tells us we are of the truth when we keep His commands. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi Charismatic Lady, I commend you for your answers to sparks questions. The Lord has surely blessed you with much insight. One question made me ☺. Several years ago, I presented spark with 2Cor3:7-11. At that time, he dismissed the fact that Paul so plainly wrote that the 10 commandments are no longer our guide and they were temporary. His answer to Paul's statement was that the verses were pertaining to Joshua's building an alter. Josh 8: 30 Then Joshua built an altar unto the Lord God of Israel in mount Ebal, 31 As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings. 32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Now spark wants you to agree that the verses in 2Cor are referring to Moses' face. He just cannot face the fact that Paul was stating that the 10 commandments were done away verse 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. KJV

What remains is Jesus' gift to all mankind, the gift of indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts guiding all mankind. Israel's guide was the temporary 10 commandments or as the NIV states; And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

I have presented 2Cor 3:6-11 to all of the SDAs I have ever posted with and all have denied Paul was referring to the 10 commandments. Most have referred me to all the verses that contain the word "commandments" and telling me Paul couldn't have meant there in 2Cor that the 10 were done away because there are so many verses telling us, we have to keep the commandments. The thing is that none of all those verses never have "10" in them. 1jn 19-24, as you have pointed out, tells us we are of the truth when we keep His commands. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Yes, and I don't know how that can deny Galatians 4:22-36. BTW, when quoting 2 Cor. 3:7-11, add verse 6. It clarifies it is talking about covenants not the glow on Moses face.

 

[Icyspark]

Icyspark, I am a dedicated Christian who has studied about the Sabbath and Covenants ever since I left the SDA denomination when I was 23. Over the next 30 years, I had to go over it time and again, to make sure I was pleasing in God's sight. I would have gone back to keeping the Sabbath if I thought it was a sin not to. Each time I studied this subject, the Spirit taught me something new, until now I can teach. Let me tell you, I am not telling you to not keep the Sabbath (Saturday) if you truly from your conscience believe your need to. God will honor you for keeping the laws on your own conscience. By the way, I still love Choplets! I even have a recipe! And I love the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. What I hate are the false doctrines that are apathetic to sin from the Reformation that has infiltrated most denominations, actually including SDA, having to do with the reason Jesus came and what He accomplished. I've actually left all denominations after being in four. The Truth is we have to be righteous and holy from a new nature to enter heaven. Not by keeping laws with our carnal willpower, Romans 7:13; Romans 8:1-9 We MUST be born again, having been baptized with the Holy Spirit of God. And I mean literally, supernaturally, by experience. Not just theologically by belief, but with no evidence.

Yes. The Holy Spirit does not contradict His word. [This is correct!]

Hi CharismaticLady,

This is why it's important to define terms when attempting to discuss divergent beliefs. You apply one NT definition of sin, apparently to the exclusion of the two other NT definitions of sin. Here's one of them:

James 4:17​

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.​

Hmm . . . anyone who knows the good they ought to do? The good . . . ? What is good? What does the Bible say?

Romans 7:12​

So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.​

According to Paul, "the law is . . . GOOD." Which law? Well, if you back up in the same paragraph you'll discover that he's speaking of the Ten Commandments!

Romans 7:7-12​

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment,deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.​

Contrary to your attempt to redirect focus off the primary definition of sin (1John 3:4) to something nebulous which one might suppose they can float in their own meaning, Paul bursts that bubble and plainly says, "I WOULD NOT HAVE KNOW WHAT SIN IS HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE LAW." He then goes on to quote from a specific set of laws and acknowledges that he "would not have know what coveting was if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet (the 10th commandment).'" The spirit whispering in your ear is deceiving you. You claim that anyone with the Spirit would know what to do and not to do, supposedly excluding the necessity for the law. In this case Paul says no. Furthermore, below you acknowledge, "The Holy Spirit does not contradict His word," and yet, here you are contradicting His word. Is your spirit more enlightened than the Spirit directing Paul? You said it: "The Holy Spirit does not contradict His word." Test your spirit. ?

I pray this helps.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi CharismaticLady,

This is why it's important to define terms when attempting to discuss divergent beliefs. You apply one NT definition of sin, apparently to the exclusion of the two other NT definitions of sin. Here's one of them:

James 4:17​

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.​

Hmm . . . anyone who knows the good they ought to do? The good . . . ? What is good? What does the Bible say?

Romans 7:12​

So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.​

According to Paul, "the law is . . . GOOD." Which law? Well, if you back up in the same paragraph you'll discover that he's speaking of the Ten Commandments!

Romans 7:7-12​

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment,deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.​

Contrary to your attempt to redirect focus off the primary definition of sin (1John 3:4) to something nebulous which one might suppose they can float in their own meaning, Paul bursts that bubble and plainly says, "I WOULD NOT HAVE KNOW WHAT SIN IS HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE LAW." He then goes on to quote from a specific set of laws and acknowledges that he "would not have know what coveting was if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet (the 10th commandment).'" The spirit whispering in your ear is deceiving you. You claim that anyone with the Spirit would know what to do and not to do, supposedly excluding the necessity for the law. In this case Paul says no. Furthermore, below you acknowledge, "The Holy Spirit does not contradict His word," and yet, here you are contradicting His word. Is your spirit more enlightened than the Spirit directing Paul? You said it: "The Holy Spirit does not contradict His word." Test your spirit. ?

I pray this helps.

This may be new to you, because I certainly didn't learn it when I was SDA, or in any other denomination since. So this won't be new to just you.

Yes, the law is good. But read the next verse and you will see why that covenant doesn't work. Romans 7:13. Ever since Adam, we have had inherited sin in our nature. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."The Ten Commandments were for those who did have sin in their nature, but were shallow enough for a sinner to keep? They never came up to the glorious eternal laws of God that match His Holiness - "To Love God with all your strength, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." It is not just curbing your actions, but cleansing your mind and spirit to stop being a sinner, but a child of God with a new divine nature. Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, (the ministry of death) God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (the ministry of the Spirit.)

The Sermon on the Mount is Jesus telling what the perfect law should look like once Jesus takes away sin out of our nature. See the difference?

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Adventists say that the glory was only on Moses' face. But it is a major difference in the covenants. The Old Covenant was weak to match our flesh. It still allowed us to sin, and thus deserve death. It was the ministry of death.

The New Covenant justifies us from our old sins, empowers us to not sin again, and glorifies us to become perfect in this life by maturing all the fruit of the Spirit.

Romans 8:29-30 Jesus was sinless. But He empowered us with His Spirit so that He was only the firstborn of MANY brethren.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Glorification is not something keeping the Ten Commandments could ever accomplish. Only the commandments of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ can make us righteous and holy. Revelation 22:11

Notice the commandments are NOT the Ten Commandments.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue: This is a discussion stater, using Jesus' walk on earth as an example.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: under the law

www.biblegateway.com

AV Ga 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

If Jesus never sinned, what part of "the law", was Jesus under ???

---

Technically, this is an old discussion, as presented from a different viewpoint.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[CharismaticLady]

Love
Love for God & man
The Ten Commandment Covenant
The other 603 decrees and laws written on paper​

The problem with this pyramid is Jesus is no where to be found.

 

[Icyspark]

Love
Love for God & man
The Ten Commandment Covenant
The other 603 decrees and laws written on paper​

The problem with this pyramid is Jesus is no where to be found.

Hi CharismaticLady,

Wow! ? So Jesus isn't God? ? If Jesus isn't God, then who is He to you?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi CharismaticLady,

Wow! ? So Jesus isn't God? ? If Jesus isn't God, then who is He to you?

There are many who have the Father God who gave the Ten Commandments covenant which you support, but surprise!. If they don't have the Son, they don't have the Father either. And you don't mention the commandments of the New Covenant, just the Old. So again, where is Jesus the giver of the New Covenant?

John 15:10; 1 John 3:23-24

 

[Icyspark]

There are many who have the Father God who gave the Ten Commandments covenant which you support, but surprise!. If they don't have the Son, they don't have the Father either. And you don't mention the commandments of the New Covenant, just the Old. So again, where is Jesus the giver of the New Covenant?

John 15:10; 1 John 3:23-24

Hi CharismaticLady,

Jesus says, "My Father and I are one," and "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

You are making a distinction without a difference. When Jesus says the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God," it's absurd to believe that He means to love only the Father and not the Son. Of necessity Jesus is included in this command.

If you read the opening post you know that my position is that there was nothing wrong with what the Israelites agreed/covenanted to do (i.e. obey all that the Lord commanded). Thus I shouldn't have to "mention the commandments of the New Covenant" as I already made it abundantly clear in the opening post that "God found fault with the people," not with His perfect law of Ten Commandments. There would be no reason to abolish this perfect law.

I pray this helps.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi CharismaticLady,

Jesus says, "My Father and I are one," and "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

You are making a distinction without a difference. When Jesus says the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God," it's absurd to believe that He means to love only the Father and not the Son. Of necessity Jesus is included in this command.

If you read the opening post you know that my position is that there was nothing wrong with what the Israelites agreed/covenanted to do (i.e. obey all that the Lord commanded). Thus I shouldn't have to "mention the commandments of the New Covenant" as I already made it abundantly clear in the opening post that "God found fault with the people," not with His perfect law of Ten Commandments. There would be no reason to abolish this perfect law.

I pray this helps.

I spelled it out in #107. I don't know what else to say to tell you why the Ten Commandments were for sinners UNTIL Christ came.

 

[ontheBeam]

Jesus made the "distinction" in Jn 15. 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[ontheBeam]

Prologue: This is a discussion stater, using Jesus' walk on earth as an example.

AV Ga 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

If Jesus never sinned, what part of "the law", was Jesus under ???

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Technically, this is an old discussion, as presented from a different viewpoint.

Yours in Christ, Michael

Hi Mike, Jesus was born under the Law. He lived under the Law. He died under the Law and He arose from the dead under the new Law He ratified on the Cross. The new law, Law of Love, written in our hearts along with the gift of the Holy Spirit is an everlasting covenant for all mankind. The covenant laws that Jews were under were exclusive to Israel and had no saving value. We, if we give our lives to Jesus, and abide by Jesus new covenant laws we have His assurance He will save us from the second ☠ .

Be aware Mike, the 10 commandments were "the ministry that brought death" 2Cor 3: 7. They were certainly not the laws of love.

 

[JonHawk]

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;

Please note, the LORD did not find fault with His perfect laws which were the foundation of the agreement between Himself and the people. The text is clear: "God found fault with the people."

The new covenant, I believe, is merely taking the faulty promises of the people out of the equation. It is no longer having laws written on stone tablets and having the people promise to keep them. Instead the LORD promises to write His laws on the fleshy tablets of human hearts. It is no longer "we will do." Now it is allowing the Spirit to live within us to do the law which He has written on our hearts. The law is internalized for those who truly love the LORD.

Remember that there is only one foundation.
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel.

You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities. Acts 3

Get a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, O house of Israel?

 

[SDAchristian]

Hi Mike, Jesus was born under the Law. He lived under the Law. He died under the Law and He arose from the dead under the new Law He ratified on the Cross. The new law, Law of Love, written in our hearts along with the gift of the Holy Spirit is an everlasting covenant for all mankind. The covenant laws that Jews were under were exclusive to Israel and had no saving value. We, if we give our lives to Jesus, and abide by Jesus new covenant laws we have His assurance He will save us from the second ☠ .

Be aware Mike, the 10 commandments were "the ministry that brought death" 2Cor 3: 7. They were certainly not the laws of love.

AV Ro 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

So you think Paul is a liar, because you tell the Truth about love and "the law" ???

Care to guess the corollary to "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." is ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[CharismaticLady]

Care to guess the corollary to "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." is ???

It is the New Covenant commandments, not the Old Covenant Ten Commandments that say nothing about Jesus or loving our neighbor.

1 John 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we [a]know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. ... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
My intent was to ask this as an open ended question, as possible.

It is the New Covenant commandments, not the Old Covenant Ten Commandments that say nothing about Jesus or loving our neighbor.
1 John 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we [a]know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. ... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
{Additional Emphasis by SDAchristian}

AV 1Jn 3:6-9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In context to your quote are these words. Please define what sin is, in GOD's understanding spiritually ???

IOW, What is "the Son of God" going to "destroy the works of the devil" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[CharismaticLady]

Prologue:
My intent was to ask this as an open ended question, as possible.

AV 1Jn 3:6-9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In context to your quote are these words. Please define what sin is, in GOD's understanding spiritually ???

IOW, What is "the Son of God" going to "destroy the works of the devil" ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

Sins unto death against your Spirit-filled conscience. Lawlessness of the royal law.