Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
Angels are called sons of God.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
NO angel is called THE Son of God and NO angel is Divine. They are created beings.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
I am interested ONLY in Bibles in use today.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
The LXX is certainly in use today. Especially by those who read Greek.
I really don't understand why you are not interested in the Bible Paul quoted frequently. If you read Paul you are reading the LXX. So it is used currently and relevant.
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Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
However, I wasn't only speaking of the new creation, but rather that God was looking ahead to Jesus for the redemption and restoration that would come through him, in order to create anything at all in the first creation.
For without the redemption and restoration that Christ would accomplish, God's creating anything in the first creation would have been vain and worthless.
Indeed, the only reason why God even allowed life to continue on this planet is because of the redemption and restoration that Jesus would accomplish through his perfect life and his death for sins and his resurrection and in order that those who will repent and believe from the first creation can be restored to God.
For instance, the only basis by which God could even accept sinners who repented and believed before Christ came was by his looking ahead to the future when Christ would come and die for their sins.
Otherwise God in his righteousness wouldn't have created any of it at all.
In other words, in his foreknowledge God saw Jesus in advance as crucified for the sins of the world in order that he might receive sinners by faith who came to him before Christ even came to die for them.
For the Bible is clear that without the shedding of blood there is no remission and that it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins and therefore they only served as a type and sign to the people that a true acceptable sacrifice for their sins would have to be made in the future by a perfect human being.
So God was only looking at those sacrifices as a vow of faith from the people so that he could receive them by his foreknowledge of Jesus coming to truly remove their sins through his own perfect blood sacrifice.
Also, their offering those sacrifices was for a sign unto them that it was necessary for a perfect blood sacrifice to be made for them in order for sins to be forgiven the people, other than that, those sacrifices did nothing to actually removed the sins of the people and the Bible is clear on that also.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Jesus didn't have to be present for the world to be made through him and I will give an example why also.
I am an artist and paint with oils and acrylics on canvas, and many times I will paint a picture on the canvas from a scene from a picture or something that came from my thoughts and when I am done with the painting, I can truly say, I painted that painting through that picture or image in my thoughts and even though the picture or image in my thoughts didn't touch a paint brush or the canvas.
This is what I am say, for God was looking ahead to Jesus for what he would create to become in the end, for he knew in advance that it would first be corrupted by sin and therefore he determined in advance its remedy first and which would come through the future coming of his human Son Jesus Christ.
If God didn't have in mind a remedy for the fall in advance, because of his righteousness, he wouldn't have created any of it at all, because he knew in advance that if he gave the creature who was to be made in his image a free will, that the creatures (man) would disobey him with it and by this corrupt everything he created.
Therefore he created it all through his plan and foreknowledge first for Jesus to be born in the future to redeem and restore a portion of it back to his original purpose in creating it and in order that it would not be created in vain but instead to make it still worth creating.
For without his plan in advance to send Jesus in the future, his creating it all would have had no purpose to it but it would have been created completely in vain and God doesn't do things in vain.
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Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
You can spin a good yarn and so do Trinitarians. But what is absent from your story is scriptural proof for your interpretation.
At John 1:10 cosmos comes into existence through the Word. That is δια used to represent personal intermediate agency.
What you are missing is a scriptural parallel. Where does God pre-create through a plan in Scripture?
This is just as valid a question as asking a Trinitarian for proof of what they claim, don't you agree?
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Sorry, but I can not read Greek, and NO English Bible on earth translates Isaiah 9:6 even remotely the way you presented it.
How about referring to translations of 9:6 in Bibles used in CHURCH.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
ALL things were created BY Jesus Christ.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
As I said and will again, Jesus as the agency of the creation didn't have to have a hands on part in it to be that agency, just as long as God was looking in advance for him to Jesus to give it purpose for God to create it all.
Furthermore, in Romans 8:29 Paul is very clearly speaking of Jesus as a man when he says the following about him.
Romans 8:29, "for those whom he (God) foreknew them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his (human) Son that he (his human Son) might be the firstborn among many (human) brethren.
Jesus couldn't be the firstborn among many human brethren as Michael the Arch Angel or as God but only as a true human being like those many brethren who were predestined to be conformed to his image.
Concerning your words in the bold blue, what do you believe God created that he didn't first have planned to create?
There are some things that ought to be understood without God drawing you a picture also and this is one of them.
Do you believe that God didn't plan his creation in his mind first Roger? Do those made in his image ever created anything without first planning it in their thoughts or their human logos?
Where did the creation come from then, did God just mindlessly speak it forth?
For there was nothing from which he created it all except for what came forth from his mind or Logos and the Bible is clear that Jesus was the firstborn in God's mind, thought or Logos and it was as a human being that he was the firstborn also and even though Adam and many other human beings came forth in the actual creation first.
Therefore Paul is speaking of him as the firstborn human being in God's plan and purpose, even though Adam and many others came into existence as human beings before Jesus did.
This also proves that God was looking to Jesus in advance of the creation as the model that God wanted those created in his image to be modeled after and also the one who would give purpose to what he would create.
By the way, I totally disagree with your idea that Jesus pre existed his being a human being as an angel or Michael the Arch Angel or any other of the OT angels either and Hebrews chapters one and two are clear on that.
However Jesus was a messenger of the NT and not of the OT and just like Malachi chapter 3 reveals also.
However God never said to any of those OT angels, "you are my Son (his human heir), this day have I begotten you" but actually this was first spoken to the human being David and from whose lineage Jesus came and as per Psalm 2:7 and then God also spoke this of David's Son Solomon and as per 2 Samuel 7:14.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
Speculation is not proof of anything. It's no better than what Trinitarians do.
As per Colossians 1, he is the firstborn from the dead.
His resurrected image
Irrelevant
No, he is the firstborn from the dead, according to Paul at 1 Colossians.
I am Orthodox Oneness. I consider Άγγελος (angel) to be a function and not an ontology.
None of this solves the problem at John 1:10 where cosmos was made through him.
This cosmos is not the group in Romans 8 as they did not know him or receive him.
Are you claiming that it was God's plan for Adam to sin and cause the world of unbelievers? They don't conform to Christ's image.
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Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Do you believe that Jesus was Michael the Arch Angel or some other angel and then was sent to become a man, if so what do you have to base this on other than speculation being you want to think that you don't speculate.
You see, I know quite a bit about the Jehovah's Witnesses and I know that they base much of what they believe on speculation also.
For instance, this idea of their that only the 144,000 will have a heavenly kingdom while the other believes will be on the earth.
For starters, it is really quite lame to take the 144,000 as symbolic concerning the 12 tribes of Israel that they are mentioned to come from and then to take the number 144,000 as completely literal.
The fact is, that both the tribes and the number 144,000 are symbolic and just like the whole book of Revelation is also.
Furthermore, there is not one shred of evidence from the scriptures that there are different classes of believers that will have different dwellings or dwelling places, for all of God's people will be together in one single Kingdom in the New Heaven and upon the New Earth.
These are just some of the rather ridiculous things that I know about your form of the great apostasy that the whole that would call itself "Christianity" has also fallen into.
By the way, I never said that it was actually God's plan that Adam would sin but only that God knew in advance that he would sin because God gave him a free will and allowed the Devil to tempt him.
God knows the end from the beginning and therefore before he even thought of creating anything, he determined in advance to have a solution for the fall through that would come in the future of the creation through Christ Jesus his human Son.
Concerning your idea that Jesus is the firstborn from the dead only, that is nonsense and actually Jesus was begotten of God (Psalm 2:7) on two days of created time, once at his birth when he was brought into this world and as per Hebrews 1:5-6 and then again after he literally and completely died for our sins on the cross and was begotten again from the dead by God as per Hebrew 13:30-34.
Sorry but Colossian 1:15-16 reveal Jesus to be the firstborn of the creation to be in God's visible image and just like Romans 8:29 reveals likewise and yes this includes the fact that he was the firstborn also from the dead but this doesn't even answer to the my point I was making about this passage.
For being the saints were predestined to be conformed to his image as a human being, this means that he was predestined before any of them to be the image of the invisible God also and therefore it still stands that this is not referring to Jesus in any pre existing life before he was born in the flesh.
In other words, as per Paul in Romans 8:29, the image that the saints were predestined to be conformed to and which was a glorified human being in the image of the invisible God, had to come first in God's plan and purpose in order for the others to be predestined to be conformed to him and it is not speaking of Jesus as an angel or as God but rather as a glorified human being in God's image.
Sorry dude but you are just another of the many tongues of false doctrine from the Harlot Mystery Babylon for just as in literal Babylon God divided the destructive unity of Shinar with the different languages, so he did also with the destructive unity of Mystery Babylon by splitting them up into the various tongues of doctrines and each have some doctrines that are correct or close mixed with others that are totally false.
This way, he gave the world a warning and sign that they are not to be trusted for the truth being they all claim to have a corner on it but disagree with the scriptures and one another and as per his warning also in Isaiah 2:22, "cease from trusting men in whose nostrils is the breath of life, for why should they be esteemed".
In case you haven't understood me yet, I believe that all organized forms of what would be called "Christianity" are in the clutches of the Apostasy that we were warned would be coming in the scriptures and that includes Jehovah's witnesses also and I believe the true church is scattered in the world and just Daniel spoke of in chapter 12 of his prophecy.
I really get a kick out of your idea that it is irrelevant that God had to have planed the creation before he created it, for it is far from irrelevant to your comment that you made about this, but I will let you have your delusion on it just the same.
You need get free of those who are teaching you, for they are leading you astray just like those who were at one time teaching me also, but there is no difference between the trins and your form of the apostasy, for they are both teaching false doctrines equally.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
I'm not dogmatic as to the identity of the Word. In fact if the Bible never mentioned Michael no doctrine would be changed.
I will say that there is more evidence that Michael was one of the names of Christ than you have provided for your explanation.
For example we know Michael exists. We don't have any evidence that God pre-created through His "plan" before He really created everything.
I did not say he was firstborn from the dead only. I refuted your notion for how Paul said he was firstborn from t
You should try to do more than make a point.
You remain refuted at J 1:10.
Now, instead of trying to divert from the subject, how about addressing J 1:10?
This one verse so far refutes you and you cannot keep running away from it.
In what way was the Word used by God to create the cosmos which includes both believers and unbelievers?
If you say through a "plan" show a biblical parallel where anyone "creates" through a "plan" ahead of time.
Romans 8 does not cut it.
GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, so you have no actual rebuttal I see... thought so. and you said this,
BEING is Present tense, and form here is "God who is a Spirit is in Flesh" this is the IMAGE OF GOD TO COME, per Romans 5:15b. and this IMAGE IS HIS BEFORE the First man was EVEN "CREATED". HELLO? yes, the Image of Man is GOD, FIRST in Flesh, HOLD IT, "How is this so, was not Adam the First man? yes, from the beginning, who is God's Own IMAGE. listen, Genesis 1:26a "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ."STOP, in our .... IMAGE? and after our .... LIKENESS? yes, are we so Ignorant of the scriptures? lets see,
Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" HELLO, HELLO ... are we learning anything here?
the Image of man and his Likeness is of God in the Flesh, which was to come. we suggest one read Isaiah Isaiah 46:10. see, we all are johnny come lately. understand TIME, or the END of the old man ran out at the cross. see God is the LAST Adam, why so that the NEW MAN may come.
understand, MAN is of God Image, and in God's Image. this is why we have John 1:1, this IMAGE, and LIKENESS, came in the END, yes, the END, BEGAN at John 1:1 when God came into this world, per Matthews 1:23. YES, "GOD" with us in flesh this is why God said "Let us, (the ordinal First, Spirit, unseen), make man in our IMAGE, which appeared at John 1:1. in our Likeness, for the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last is our ... "EXAMPLE", for the Lord Jesus is the character, or is the manifested "characteristics" of GOD in Flesh, hence the title "Son", which mean character, or characteristics, and it's the Greek word, G5207, huios, you might want to look that up.
Holy is his character, and Spirit is his NATURE ... hence the term... "Holy Spirit". meaning Holy/character, "Son", Spirit/Nature, Per John 4:24a, "Father".... HELLO? are we getting this .....
see, this is why you have no rebuttal, because you as well as all of us are IGNORANT, some more so that other, but we all are in the same boat.
Phil 2:6 shows God NATURE, and that nature, which is Spirit, came in the Flesh, per Phil 2:7 & 8 as a man which is our EXAMPLE, which is God's character, per, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
that term "the express image" is character, it's the Hebrew word,
G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
this is why God in Flesh is called "SON", because that Flesh or the IMAGE of God expressed God character HELLO.... because it WAS "God" that was in that flesh. are we getting this, because this is whay our Lord Jesus said, the Father is in, in, in, me. John 10:38 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
so I suggest one row a little faster if you want to make it to shore. quit looking at the bible from man's point of view, which is a narrow one, and get into the Spirit and see all things, from God's point of view. someone once said, "our time in this LIFE is like a parade, some might be at the start of the parade, some in the middle, and some at the end of the parade. those at the end of parade had no idea of the start, or the beginning of the parade, or those at the start the end, and those in the middle had no idea of eith start or end, but God who has a bird eyes view of all, the Start, the middle, and the end of the parade, knows all. hence the Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
again we suggest one digest Isaiah 46:10 and quit looking at the word of God from our point of view, (the start, the end, or in the middle), which all are Ignorant limited view. but the bible gives us the bird's eye view from God's prospective. this is why I know that Jesus is God in Flesh, and that he's the Beginning/First and the End/Last .... of the parade. he knows the start, the middle, and the end of the parade. and it's right here in the bible, only let God teach you.
PICJAG. 101G.
First thanks for the reply, second, so you have no actual rebuttal I see... thought so. and you said this,
ERROR, this is why you have no rebuttal, because the apostle do speak of God in flesh in the "LIKENESS", LIKENESS", likeness of, of, of, a man. supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
BEING is Present tense, and form here is "God who is a Spirit is in Flesh" this is the IMAGE OF GOD TO COME, per Romans 5:15b. and this IMAGE IS HIS BEFORE the First man was EVEN "CREATED". HELLO? yes, the Image of Man is GOD, FIRST in Flesh, HOLD IT, "How is this so, was not Adam the First man? yes, from the beginning, who is God's Own IMAGE. listen, Genesis 1:26a "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ."STOP, in our .... IMAGE? and after our .... LIKENESS? yes, are we so Ignorant of the scriptures? lets see,
Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" HELLO, HELLO ... are we learning anything here?
the Image of man and his Likeness is of God in the Flesh, which was to come. we suggest one read Isaiah Isaiah 46:10. see, we all are johnny come lately. understand TIME, or the END of the old man ran out at the cross. see God is the LAST Adam, why so that the NEW MAN may come.
understand, MAN is of God Image, and in God's Image. this is why we have John 1:1, this IMAGE, and LIKENESS, came in the END, yes, the END, BEGAN at John 1:1 when God came into this world, per Matthews 1:23. YES, "GOD" with us in flesh this is why God said "Let us, (the ordinal First, Spirit, unseen), make man in our IMAGE, which appeared at John 1:1. in our Likeness, for the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last is our ... "EXAMPLE", for the Lord Jesus is the character, or is the manifested "characteristics" of GOD in Flesh, hence the title "Son", which mean character, or characteristics, and it's the Greek word, G5207, huios, you might want to look that up.
Holy is his character, and Spirit is his NATURE ... hence the term... "Holy Spirit". meaning Holy/character, "Son", Spirit/Nature, Per John 4:24a, "Father".... HELLO? are we getting this .....
see, this is why you have no rebuttal, because you as well as all of us are IGNORANT, some more so that other, but we all are in the same boat.
Phil 2:6 shows God NATURE, and that nature, which is Spirit, came in the Flesh, per Phil 2:7 & 8 as a man which is our EXAMPLE, which is God's character, per, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
that term "the express image" is character, it's the Hebrew word,
G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
this is why God in Flesh is called "SON", because that Flesh or the IMAGE of God expressed God character HELLO.... because it WAS "God" that was in that flesh. are we getting this, because this is whay our Lord Jesus said, the Father is in, in, in, me. John 10:38 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
so I suggest one row a little faster if you want to make it to shore. quit looking at the bible from man's point of view, which is a narrow one, and get into the Spirit and see all things, from God's point of view. someone once said, "our time in this LIFE is like a parade, some might be at the start of the parade, some in the middle, and some at the end of the parade. those at the end of parade had no idea of the start, or the beginning of the parade, or those at the start the end, and those in the middle had no idea of eith start or end, but God who has a bird eyes view of all, the Start, the middle, and the end of the parade, knows all. hence the Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
again we suggest one digest Isaiah 46:10 and quit looking at the word of God from our point of view, (the start, the end, or in the middle), which all are Ignorant limited view. but the bible gives us the bird's eye view from God's prospective. this is why I know that Jesus is God in Flesh, and that he's the Beginning/First and the End/Last .... of the parade. he knows the start, the middle, and the end of the parade. and it's right here in the bible, only let God teach you.
PICJAG. 101G.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
First off, the fact that Michael exists is no proof at all that Michael or any other angel that also existed prior to Jesus was Jesus as a pre existing being.
Secondly you are rejecting the inspired word of God from the Book of Hebrews, for very clearly it reveals that God never spoke to any of those OT angels and called any of them his Son in the singular.
Thirdly, you are totally wrong about God not having a pre determined plan and that he knew his elect starting with Jesus before the foundation of the world, for God told Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:5, "before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" and the Hebrew word translated as "knew," is the same word used for when a man becomes intimate with his wife.
You will see the same evidence from the words of David in Psalm 139 as well, for with God, his foreknowledge is as real to him as if a person was already created and your problem is like most on this forum, they are trying to understand God through what comes natural to their thinking and this is called "the flesh" in the Bible.
Read 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3, for their is the teaching from the wisdom of the flesh (the natural mind of men) and there is the teaching from the wisdom of the Holy Spirit of God and there can be no compromise either, for if there is, then the truth will be muddied up with error.
This is what was wrong in the church of Corinth and it is what contributed greatly to the present apostasy that we are seeing today and the reason why we have so many different tongues of false teaching that is causing the confusion in the world about the truth of God
You didn't refute anything actually, for to start with you missed my point and the point was that God predestined and foreknew Jesus as a human being and also as the one in which all his elect would be conformed to the image of.
All that God created was conceived first in his mind = his Logos and the creation started with Jesus being the firstborn in his mind (Revelation 3:14) and even though in the order of the actual creation itself he wasn't the first born.
For the word firstborn with God has nothing to do with who comes first in the actual creation but who comes first in their position with God and therefore it refers to the rank of importance in his plan.
You see this evidence with Jacob and Esau, for although Esau was born first in the order of creation and time, he wasn't the firstborn with God but rather Jacob was and there are other examples of this in the scriptures also.
In fact this is what John the Baptist was saying in John 1:15 when he said of Jesus, "this is him of whom I spoke, who comes after me but has become "ginomai" my superior because he was before me".
I often use this passage with trins because John didn't say that Jesus became his superior because Jesus was God but rather because in God's plan and purpose and his position with God, Jesus was before John the Baptist and just like Jacob was before Esau likewise and that is what first born means with God.
Nope, but the problem is with you in your attempting to understand spiritual truths of God from your fleshy mind instead of by the Spirit and you are wasting your time therefore, for all you will end up with is false religion and just like the trins and oneness and many unitarians also.
For the nature of God and Christ is only the beginning of other truths also in the Bible that are likewise being twisted by the organized religions professing to be God's people.
Sorry but it is important to get you to see that you are doing exactly what you think I am doing with many other doctrines that you believe in and I am speaking of "speculating" here, and that is why I brought it up and therefore it is quite relevant.
ROFLOL, I don't need to run away from anything concerning John 1:10, for I understand it through the wisdom of the Spirit while you are trying to evaluate it through your flesh and so while you think you have it figured correctly, you are mistaken.
First off, the word is Logos and not just the English "Word" and it is from where we get our English word "Logic" and at the center of God's Logos was his plan of creation through Christ, that while he knew in advance that the creation would be corrupted by sin, he had planned in advance for a solution for its redemption and restoration through Christ and his sacrifice.
It was the light of hope in God's foreknowledge, for all sinners and whether they would believe or not is irrelevant, because God provided a plan in the future coming of Jesus as a remedy for all of them, whether they would receive it or not, for God is not responsible for sinners rejecting his remedy for their condition in and through Christ Jesus.
As soon as you show me proof that Jesus pre existed as an angel in the scripture and especially when the book of Hebrews refutes any such idea completely.
Oh but it does to anyone who is being led by the Spirit and therefore can hear what the Spirit says about it, but then again, it will be hard for those whose carnal minds are busy in their attempt to understand it correctly, to hear anything from the Spirit.
For it is kind of like talking to someone whose mind is busy elsewhere, for they will never hear a word that you say and such is what happens with those who are led by the wisdom of the flesh when the Spirit would want to reveal the truth unto them, they cannot hear the Spirit for all of the worthless clatter in their attempt to figure it all out with their carnal minds instead.
That is what is being revealed in Revelation, when Jesus said, "let him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying", for if you are giving your ear over to the wisdom of the flesh, you cannot hear the Spirit, it is just that simple.
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John Milton
Well-known member
He doesn't know or read Greek either, and he is nearly always wrong when he refers to it. The only thing you can reliably trust from him are the direct quotations from the sources he provides. He doesn't know how or doesn't have the skills necessary to apply the things he reads. Take his statement about angels being a function and not an ontology as an example. In Hebrews 1:4 the term "angels" is used to refer to the beings that exist in heaven. There is absolutely no reference to their function anywhere leading up to the verse.
(Emphasis added.) The author is clearly using the term to refer to a class of beings. The truth is that the term "angel" is used both ways. I say this to warn you that you should take whatever he says with a pound of salt.Hebrews 1:1-4 said:
Manfred
Well-known member
I will stick with Matthew, which you are ignoring like the plague, while rolling around laughing out loud
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
e
As I said, the identity of the Word before he became flesh is not something for which I am dogmatoc
I see Hebrews supporting my view. Remember "angel" is only a function. If God sends someone to say or do something they are angel/message in function. It's not an ontological term
If you are dogmatic about "plan" as the agent of God with δια then provide an example.
What does Jeremiah have to do woth
You argue on a few examples of prophets and apply it to all humans? That's not warranted and also does not prove your point of
You are philosophizing and not exegeting the Bible. I have no interest in philosophy.
I'm still looking for your scriptural support and specificity grammatical parallels to your very unique view.
As I said, the identity of the Word before he became flesh is not something for which I am dogmatoc
I see Hebrews supporting my view. Remember "angel" is only a function. If God sends someone to say or do something they are angel/message in function. It's not an ontological term
If you are dogmatic about "plan" as the agent of God with δια then provide an example.
What does Jeremiah have to do woth
You argue on a few examples of prophets and apply it to all humans? That's not warranted and also does not prove your point of
You are philosophizing and not exegeting the Bible. I have no interest in philosophy.
I'm still looking for your scriptural support and specificity grammatical parallels to your very unique view.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
ROFLOL, so you believe in Hebrews 1:5 that when the writer says, "for unto which of the angels did God ever say you are my Son this day have I begotten you", he was speaking of a function and not a celestial being huh? And you are telling me that I am speculating?
That is bunk, for although people can also be messengers, the Bible also reveals that God has created heavenly celestial beings that are called angels and the Bible specifically speaks of angels in Hebrews as actual celestial beings and tells us that God never spoke unto any of them and told them that they were his Son.
Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica on the Definition of the word Logos and you should understand that John was using the Philosophical Greek Logos and its Hebrew version the Memra, pretty much the same way that Paul used "the alter to the unknown God" in the Book of Acts.
Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.
Notice, nowhere in the early definitions of the Logos, is it ever stated that the Logos was an actual living person and even in the Hebrew version of the Memra, the Memra was only a personification of God's word and not an actual sentient living being or second person of God like trins try to argue and the Jewish Encyclopedia will reveal this also.
Oh come on dude, it proves that God foreknew Jeremiah intimately as conceived first in his mind and plan before he was actually created in the physical world and so does Psalm 139 concerning David also and this proves that Jesus pre existed only in God's intimate foreknowledge of him and before any others in creation also.
This is what Paul is speaking of in Colossians 1:15-16 and also in Romans 8:29. Jesus was the firstborn image of the invisible God over all creation and which means he was the firstborn conceived in the mind = Logos of God over all creation.
Romans 8:29 proves this as what Paul meant because all saints from the beginning of creation unto the end are predestined to be conformed to his image and this also includes Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David and all of God's elect from the beginning to the end.
Which being Jesus was not the firstborn in the order of the physical creation, he was the firstborn as conceived in the mind of God = the Logos.
For if every single saint from the beginning of creation to the end of creation was predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus and the scriptures cannot be broken, then Jesus had to be the first to be conceived in God's mind and at the center of his Divine Logos and you do need to consider the full definition of the Logos.
Well my Bible tells me, "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be confirmed" what does your say dude?
ROFLOL, Sorry but there is nothing philosophical at all about what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 and especially in what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16 and following into 1 Corinthians 3:1-2 and as I have copied and pasted below.
For this is the very reason why there are right now so many different divisions of tongues of false doctrine in the world (Mystery Babylon), including that of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1 Corinthians 2:
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lordso as to instruct him?”
But we (who are truly spiritual) have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3: And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
I just gave it unto you by the true definition of the word "Logos" before the apostate churches" added their unsupported inflections on the the word.
Furthermore, I also have you proof from what is truly being taught in Colossians 1:15-16 and also in Romans 8:29 and also from Jeremiah 1:5 and from Psalm 139, and you really shouldn't need a picture drawn for you.
For if all God's elect were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus who is the firstborn image of the invisible God of all the creation as a human being, and as per Colossians 1:15 and Romans 8:29, then this proves that Paul was not speaking of Jesus as the first creation at all.
For what it proves is that Paul was speaking of Jesus as the firstborn human being in the image of the invisible God that was conceived in God's mind and unto which all his elect from the beginning of the creation to the end would be predestined to be conformed to the image of.
Like I said, you are led by your flesh and also by the flesh of the teachers of the Jehovah's witnesses and that is why you can't see these facts in the scriptures, but they are there to be seen and understood by those who are led by the Spirit.
Furthermore, Jehovah's Witnesses speculate on many things in the scriptures and without even the slightest bit of evidence from any of the inspired writers of the NT also and like I the examples I posted in a previous reply and you knew better than to get into being you know what I am talking about.
Like the classes that they divide God's people into such as "the Mordecai Naomi class" and which is utter nonsense and not at all revealed in the scriptures.
You are also wrong about what you believe about how we are to be saved as well and other than the truth about the nature of God and Christ, this is the most important issue in the scriptures.
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Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
You should read the entire first chapter. BDAG says of λειτουργός at H 1:7 that the angels are "heavenly beings as servants of God."
One thing you should know about me. I never speculate. If I say something I will have proof.
My analysis stands. Angel is a functional category and not an ontological one. That is why the same word is used of human beings.