Thief on the cross - forgiven how?

[Jewjitzu]

burgeoning​

• v.
  Present participle of burgeon.
• n.
  the act of budding or sprouting
• n.
  a bud or branch

The Netzer, Yeshua.

Yeah, I don't see it. I wait for another, an actual seed of David.

 

[Rachel Redux]

Yeah, I don't see it. I wait for another, an actual seed of David.

Good luck, dude.

 

[American Gothic]

It's absolutely correct to say the thief failed at the Law, so if he was to be saved it would not be thru his performance of commandments,
he would have to put his trust in God to save him. This is the same for anyone and everyone.

"I (God) am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior."

 

[tbeachhead]

And yet Ezekiel 37-45 show otherwise.

Absolute nonsense. You have no idea what Ezekiel 37-45 actually portrays...shall we wade in the river? Eat from the trees?

Rotfl... whatever.

Try sacrificing with a marred lamb...or keep rolling on the floor, never understanding.

Innocent in the sense of not deserving to be murdered.

Innocent in the sense of innocent...guiltless and that's not the point: innocent blood pollutes the land, and the land vomits out the inhabitants...it's called sin-made climate change.

Actually, quite funny given that you have no support in Torah for human sacrifice as a means of atonement.

Really? Shall we talk about Achan and his whole family, then? Or ignore it altogether? Want to talk about Uzzah? Or shall we talk about the plague on Israel because of Saul's sin against the Gibeonites that was mitigated by sacrificing seven of his descendants? Hmm?

See above.

Naaah...I just see denial. God transcends time.

Jesus' body was moved elsewhere.

Untenable albeit wishful falsehood. You miraculously elevate eleven fishermen to the position of Superman, not a single retraction from their own eyewitness account...and a multiplication of falsified hostile fabrications, none of which agree or account for demonstrable history. You're stuck with an empty tomb.

Already done. It's not in Torah.

False. Sin carries the death penalty. The entire sacrificial system was designed for remission by the shedding of the blood of a pure and spotless lamb. You have abrogated nearly the entire book of Leviticus to support your new religion, that bears no resemblance at all to what Moses prescribed. It's not at all surprising, given the antiquity of your traditional denials, that you do not see this.

God, the Father, is already my Redeemer, Isaiah 63:16.

...and the means is likewise clear...to be received or rejected.

 

[tbeachhead]

Both needed. That's the point.


No, that would be Paul, you, and your teachers.

Really? Your neoJudaism has abrogated nearly the entire book of Leviticus, and proliferated so many excuses for it, it's laughable. I said this in another post: Your religion bears absolutely no resemblance to the religion Moses prescribed...You justify your traditions merely by the antiquity thereof. You have nothing more.

Your problem.

No...it's the problem of the one whose religion is based entirely on denial.

Actually, God will judge the nations on how they treated Israel.

Which Israel? The political entity that was birthed in the Balfour agreement?

 

[tbeachhead]

You don't think Jews before Jesus' death were obligated to follow the Sinai covenant? Really? Do you just excise the Tanak (OT) from your bible?

Why do you believe Jesus' death ended the Sinai covenant?

 

[Open Heart]

It's absolutely correct to say the thief failed at the Law, so if he was to be saved it would not be thru his performance of commandments,
he would have to put his trust in God to save him. This is the same for anyone and everyone.

"I (God) am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior."

You are misrepresenting the Law. PART of the law is that God forgives. Repent and turn back to God is the teaching of every prophet. It's not as if no one was forgiven before Jesus' death.

 

[Open Heart]

Why do you believe Jesus' death ended the Sinai covenant?

I certainly don't. I didn't argue for that. I was saying that the standard Christian understanding (and I am not a Christian) is that Jesus' death ended the Sinai covenant, but that it was in full force before that.

 

[Open Heart]

Which Israel? The political entity that was birthed in the Balfour agreement?

We refer to the People of Israel, also known as Hebrews and Jews. No one was talking politics. The context was clear.

 

[American Gothic]

You are misrepresenting the Law. PART of the law is that God forgives. Repent and turn back to God is the teaching of every prophet. It's not as if no one was forgiven before Jesus' death.

I only contend that no law is savior, only God is.
Anyone anytime has to believe in God and His promises, and trust God as only Savior.

agree/disagree?

It's not as if no one was forgiven before Jesus' death.

It's not as if no one was saved before Mosaic law was given, to Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

I only contend that no law is savior, only God is.
Anyone anytime has to believe in God and His promises, and trust God as only Savior.

agree/disagree?


It's not as if no one was saved before Mosaic law was given, to Israel.

The Torah doesn't talk about being saved from sins. That is a Christian idea. The Torah is about obeying God's laws simply because God is God. The prophets underscore this.

 

[SteveB]

When the thief on the cross died, how were his sins forgiven prior to his death?

Was he still obligated to the law and required to bring sacrifices for his confessed sins, or did Jesus forgive him with just words, a prayer?

For that matter, by what thinking did Jesus forgive others in the NT by just saying your sins are forgiven since the law still applied and sacrifices were required for those before his death, according to Christian theology?

Since Jesus didn't break the law according to Christians, what justifies him forgiving people without a sacrifice?

In Joel 2 we read that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.

In Habakkuk 2:4, the just shall live by faith.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham was accounted righteous because he believed God.

In Exodus 34, YHVH told Moses he would have mercy upon him whom he would have mercy, and be gracious towards those whom he would be gracious.

So, the thief called on the name of YHVH, and believed his word.

Therefore, he was accounted righteous.

 

[Open Heart]

In Joel 2 we read that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.

In Habakkuk 2:4, the just shall live by faith.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham was accounted righteous because he believed God.

In Exodus 34, YHVH told Moses he would have mercy upon him whom he would have mercy, and be gracious towards those whom he would be gracious.

So, the thief called on the name of YHVH, and believed his word.

Therefore, he was accounted righteous.

Where does the thief call on the sacred name of God?

 

[Jewjitzu]

Good luck, dude.

Thank you. Good luck with the virgin birth myth.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Absolute nonsense. You have no idea what Ezekiel 37-45 actually portrays...shall we wade in the river? Eat from the trees?

Wow, you can't handle prophecy? It's clear the 3rd temple and sacrifices come back with Messiah prince offering sacrifices for himself.

Try sacrificing with a marred lamb...or keep rolling on the floor, never understanding.

Marred lamb? That would be Jesus who was beaten up, or was he the goat?

Innocent in the sense of innocent...guiltless and that's not the point: innocent blood pollutes the land, and the land vomits out the inhabitants...it's called sin-made climate change.

Never said otherwise that murder doesn't pollute the land.

Really? Shall we talk about Achan and his whole family, then? Or ignore it altogether? Want to talk about Uzzah? Or shall we talk about the plague on Israel because of Saul's sin against the Gibeonites that was mitigated by sacrificing seven of his descendants? Hmm?
Naaah...I just see denial. God transcends time.
Untenable albeit wishful falsehood. You miraculously elevate eleven fishermen to the position of Superman, not a single retraction from their own eyewitness account...and a multiplication of falsified hostile fabrications, none of which agree or account for demonstrable history. You're stuck with an empty tomb.

Actually, we found Jesus' tomb. So much for his resurrection.

False. Sin carries the death penalty. The entire sacrificial system was designed for remission by the shedding of the blood of a pure and spotless lamb.

Aaah, there were several animals that could be offered, besides doves, and flour cakes, etc.

You have abrogated nearly the entire book of Leviticus to support your new religion, that bears no resemblance at all to what Moses prescribed. It's not at all surprising, given the antiquity of your traditional denials, that you do not see this.

In what way? Don't you teach one blood sacrifice does it all though Torah says nothing of this?

...and the means is likewise clear...to be received or rejected.

Your words are rejected.

 

[SteveB]

Where does the thief call on the sacred name of God?

Luk 23:42 WEB He said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

 

[Jewjitzu]

Really? Your neoJudaism has abrogated nearly the entire book of Leviticus, and proliferated so many excuses for it, it's laughable.

NeoJudaism? You're confused with what you and Paul practice.

I said this in another post: Your religion bears absolutely no resemblance to the religion Moses prescribed...You justify your traditions merely by the antiquity thereof. You have nothing more.
No...it's the problem of the one whose religion is based entirely on denial.

I said this before. I really don't care what you think. One who worships a created man should keep silent.

Which Israel? The political entity that was birthed in the Balfour agreement?

Israel has been around since the 2nd temple and before, Jeremiah 33:17-26.

 

[Jewjitzu]

In Joel 2 we read that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.

Yes, Joel 2:32, specifically the context calls out Mount Zion and Jerusalem.

In Habakkuk 2:4, the just shall live by faith.

Yes, his faith, acted out as Abraham did.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham was accounted righteous because he believed God.

Yes, faith with action.

In Exodus 34, YHVH told Moses he would have mercy upon him whom he would have mercy, and be gracious towards those whom he would be gracious.

Yes, beautiful, but that isn't in Exodus 34, it's Exodus 33 and the context was Israel.

So, the thief called on the name of YHVH, and believed his word.

Which never happened.

Therefore, he was accounted righteous.

Then so are all Jews today. Thank you.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Luk 23:42 WEB He said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

Which isn't a reference to YHWH, as humans aren't the God. Abraham, Moses, David, etc., were called Lord too.

 

[SteveB]

Yes, Joel 2:32, specifically the context calls out Mount Zion and Jerusalem.
Yes, his faith, acted out as Abraham did.


Yes, faith with action.


Yes, beautiful, but that isn't in Exodus 34, it's Exodus 33 and the context was Israel.


Which never happened.

Jesus said otherwise.

Then so are all Jews today. Thank you.

Do they believe YHVH's Word?
Isaiah said they didn't believe.

Isa 6:9-10 WEB 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people, ‘You hear indeed, but don’t understand. You see indeed, but don’t perceive.’ 10 Make the heart of this people fat. Make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and turn again, and be healed.”

In fact, YHVH said

Isa 29:9-15 WEB 9 Pause and wonder! Blind yourselves and be blind! They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For Yahweh has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes, the prophets; and he has covered your heads, the seers. 11 All vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is educated, saying, “Read this, please;” and he says, “I can’t, for it is sealed;” 12 and the book is delivered to one who is not educated, saying, “Read this, please;” and he says, “I can’t read.” 13 The Lord said, “Because this people draws near with their mouth and honors me with their lips, but they have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which has been taught; 14 therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the understanding of their prudent men will be hidden.” 15 Woe to those who deeply hide their counsel from Yahweh, and whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, “Who sees us?” and “Who knows us?”

He also invited the people to engage him.

Isa 28:15-17 WEB 15 “Because you have said, ‘We have made a covenant with death, and we are in agreement with Sheol. When the overflowing scourge passes through, it won’t come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and we have hidden ourselves under falsehood.’” 16 Therefore the Lord Yahweh says, “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone of a sure foundation. He who believes shall not act hastily. 17 I will make justice the measuring line, and righteousness the plumb line. The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters will overflow the hiding place.

Isa 30:8-18 WEB 8 Now go, write it before them on a tablet, and inscribe it in a book, that it may be for the time to come forever and ever. 9 For it is a rebellious people, lying children, children who will not hear Yahweh’s law; 10 who tell the seers, “Don’t see!” and the prophets, “Don’t prophesy to us right things. Tell us pleasant things. Prophesy deceits. 11 Get out of the way. Turn away from the path. Cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.” 12 Therefore the Holy One of Israel says, “Because you despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and rely on it, 13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly in an instant. 14 He will break it as a potter’s vessel is broken, breaking it in pieces without sparing, so that there won’t be found among the broken pieces a piece good enough to take fire from the hearth, or to dip up water out of the cistern.” 15 For thus said the Lord Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel, “You will be saved in returning and rest. Your strength will be in quietness and in confidence.” You refused, 16 but you said, “No, for we will flee on horses;” therefore you will flee; and, “We will ride on the swift;” therefore those who pursue you will be swift. 17 One thousand will flee at the threat of one. At the threat of five, you will flee until you are left like a beacon on the top of a mountain, and like a banner on a hill. 18 Therefore Yahweh will wait, that he may be gracious to you; and therefore he will be exalted, that he may have mercy on you, for Yahweh is a God of justice. Blessed are all those who wait for him.

And

Isa 59:1-4 WEB 1 Behold, Yahweh’s hand is not shortened, that it can’t save; nor his ear dull, that it can’t hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity. Your lips have spoken lies. Your tongue mutters wickedness. 4 No one sues in righteousness, and no one pleads in truth. They trust in vanity, and speak lies. They conceive mischief, and give birth to iniquity.

As he says later, all day long I have stretched out my hands to an argumentative and disobedient people.

So, I have to wonder... are they?

He does tell Amos, can two walk together unless they are in agreement?