JoeT
Well-known member
Sorry, they're not even close to "similar"; one is a Divine mystery the other is a talisman.
JoeT
Could Transubstantion be true?
- Thread starter Nic
- Start date
- Status
JoeT
Your opinion. It is symbolic only.
So what you are saying is that if the Eucharistic "body" actually were a body with skin, bones, muscles, sinews, blood vessels, organs, and so on, no one would consume it. And that is why you need this fanciful distinction between substance and accidents, which is nonsensical.
Or make-believe, which is another way of putting it. In contrast, the miracles of the Bible were always discernible. Christ was actually risen from the dead and was witnessed as such by many. No fanciful quasi-philosophical theories were needed to just imagine that He had risen.
Yes, I see Him as crucified for my sins and raised on the third day, rather than as a piece of bread and a cup of wine.
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. (Gal. 3:1)
Yes, I believe that He carried my sins in His flesh onto the cross and took them away once and for all by the shedding of His blood. His sacrifice is my spiritual food.
I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. (John 6:35)
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh... (Heb 10:19–20)
Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35- "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus uses figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
The literal interpretation of eating flesh and drinking blood (cannibalism) is absurd. By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life. Eating and drinking here is not about cannibalism, but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ unto salvation, as He makes clear in metaphoric and plain language:
John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.
"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as we see the result is the same, eternal life.
John 6 does not afford any support to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life. The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
The literal interpretation of eating flesh and drinking blood (cannibalism) is absurd. By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life. Eating and drinking here is not about cannibalism, but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ unto salvation, as He makes clear in metaphoric and plain language:
John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.
"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as we see the result is the same, eternal life.
John 6 does not afford any support to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life. The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
Nic
Well-known member
Nic
Well-known member
Just a comment, because we cannot debate here, but lots of things about Christianity seem absurd usually and especially to outsiders; rising from the dead, walking on water to name two.
But I hear ya...
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Sure you are and there are eternal consequences for certain things people believe. If you believe your wafer is god, thats gonna be an issue on judgement day. Because false gods and idolatry won't get you very far. You've trusted in the wrong thing. So yes, as to your first sentence, it does matter.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
I'll throw my hat in the ring briefly. No its not true. God doesn't dwell in food but His people. God doesn't deceive people by thinking bread or wine is God and it should be worshiped. The consecrated wafer is also said to be propitiatory and this has already been covered but thats wrong as well. Propitiation is essentially an atoning sacrifice, there has to be expiation and satisfaction. If the place of the expiatory sacrifice were at the last supper it makes the cross meaningless and hence Jesus' death meaningless if what happened in the upper room was propitiatory.
LifeIn
Well-known member
Yet sometimes God is in pillar of fire or a pillar of smoke. Why couldn't God be in a piece of bread?
Unless that bread or wine is in fact God, in which case it would not be a deception.
Only because Christ's sacrifice on the cross is propitiatory, and the Eucharist and that sacrifice are one in the same sacrifice.
there's one of those false teachings and you posted it. can you support it from the ccc?
JoeT
Well-known member
Symbols give birth to their own genera, thus with a symbol Eucharist will only yield a symbolic eternal life. How does one hold an eternal life symbolically? On the other hand, a real Eucharist will yield a real eternal life. "It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life." [John 6:64]
JoeT
you believe a 'real' (whatever that is to you) eucharist gives you eternal life? a wafer (bread was used in scripture, no mention of a wafer) saves you? can you support that from scripture? can you support your belief in that from the ccc?
It is the Spirit of God quickening the heart (changing it) that is the rebirth.
the flesh profits nothing - yet catholics believe it is 'eating His flesh' that saves them (according to your post). God's word says something different.
He clearly says His words in Jn 6 are spirit and life, yet catholics continually claim it was literal.
A real Eucharist IS Jesus Christ, thus eternal life and that is who offers salvation - Jesus Christ. The Jesus present in our Eucharist and the Jesus in your (and also our) spiritual out look - they are one and the same.
thx for clarifying. then no such thing as a 'real eucharist' exists. that wafer is not Christ.
no, not the same. There is no Jesus of scripture (Lord and Savior) in your wafer.
they are not the same. the RCC has made up its own (man made) Jesus, much like the LDS have done. There are many likenesses to catholicism in the LDS.
A mere opinion of yours. Valid for you, not for us.
Another mere opinion of yours. Valid for you, not for us.
no, that of scripture - God's word. I'm one who does believe the truth of His word. I became a believer in the later 70s when I was born again - a number of yrs after I left the RCC. I believe what Jesus and the apostles taught during their ministries on earth - back when believers were 1st called Christians.
yes, valid for those who do believe in Him and His word.
not valid for catholics who don't believe in Him and His word, but instead believe in the RCC and its man made words.
same reply as above.
let us know when you have something you can support with what His word actually does say.
LifeIn
Well-known member
Yes:
| 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory." |
yes, a believer here posted that after catholic posts conflicted (saying He wasn't/He was), probably nondenom posted the ccc on it.
He is no longer a victim. He wasn't a victim on the cross, He went willingly to die for the sins of mankind. The 2nd person of the Trinity was involved in the plan for it.
catholics claim He was a victim and want to keep Him a victim.
note it also says in an unbloody manner. Without His shed blood it saves no one, it covers the sins of no one.
LifeIn
Well-known member
You are misunderstanding the word "victim", which does not preclude a willing victim.
But His blood was shed, and without that bloody sacrifice, there would be no Eucharist. That too is Catholic teaching.
If it was real those evil priest would have dropped down dead. So symbolic.
- Status