Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

[Theo1689]

and you cannot claim man always does what God wants
without the unbiblical idea God want us to sin and disobey him

So you think Gen. 50:20 is "unbiblical"?
So you think Isa. 10:5-7 is "unbiblical"?
So you think Acts 4:27-28 is "unbiblical"?
So you think Rom. 3:19-20 is "unbiblical"?

 

[TomFL]

Yes and we all believe we are doing what we want so his argument is meaningless!

I’m sure he will blow a gasket if he ever watches the section on “Choice” examined…


01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular reasoning
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined (common argument of Tom)
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 ️"Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 ️"freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck

sorry but you took a loose definition and simply ignored the fact in your theology God determines what you want

so you are not free to chose what you want for yourself

Further you make God the author of mans evil desires and deeds

and are plainly unbiblical

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

According to your theology God determined that lust

1 Cor. 10:13 —KJV
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

In your theology this verse is false the sin you committed was determined for you and there was no way to avoid it

1 John 2:16 —KJV
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

but you turn scripture on its head and make he lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life from God

 

[Sketo]

Freewill has a wider meaning that freedom from God

Then your “wider” meaning is meaningless in this discussion! And what’s left, in your meaning, is not supported in the Bible!

God will always judge man

Yep…

and you cannot claim man always does what God wants

0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 ️Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established

without the unbiblical idea God want us to sin and disobey him

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to come to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

Sorry when you want is controlled and determined by another you are not really doing what you want

Still using the same reference point we all agree on…

01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed (and denied)

In any case your theology leads you back to the idea God wants us to sin and disobey him

3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to come to pass.

and remains unbiblical

Biblical examples meticulously examined…

3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example Joseph’s brothers

 

[Sketo]

sorry but you took a loose definition and simply ignored the fact in your theology God determines what you want

Ignored? ?
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism

so you are not free to chose what you want for yourself

01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism


04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)

04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?

04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

Further you make God the author of mans evil desires and deeds

00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question

and are plainly unbiblical

???

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined and refuted
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

According to your theology God determined that lust

Yep…

1 Cor. 10:13 —KJV
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

In your theology this verse is false the sin you committed was determined for you and there was no way to avoid it

01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined and refuted

1 John 2:16 —KJV
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

but you turn scripture on its head and make he lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life from God

02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"


00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question

 

[Theo1689]

Ignored? ?
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism


01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism


04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)

04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?

04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.



00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question


???



02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined and refuted
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

Yep…




01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined and refuted



02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"


00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question

I find it amusing that the poster apparently wants to engage in discussion about the content of the video, but doesn't seem to want to actually watch the video.

I think he's afraid of what it might contain.

 

[TomFL]

Yes and we all believe we are doing what we want so his argument is meaningless!

I’m sure he will blow a gasket if he ever watches the section on “Choice” examined…


01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular reasoning
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined (common argument of Tom)
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 ️"Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 ️"freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck

Ignored? ?
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism


01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism


04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)

04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?

04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.



00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question


???



02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined and refuted
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

Yep…




01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined and refuted



02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"


00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question

I find it amusing that the poster apparently wants to engage in discussion about the content of the video, but doesn't seem to want to actually watch the video.

I think he's afraid of what it might contain.

And I find it amusing

First by defining free will as doing what you want and stating all believe that

He is not refuting free will but affirming it

redefined of course but he is still affirming it

LOL

The title of his op was just refuted



second Theo I am not interrested in discussing a video but but the scriptural truth of the matter to that end

I noted the unbiblical nature of his position

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

TomFL said:
According to your theology God determined that lust

Yep…

and the bible states it is not from God

I dont need to see a 3 hour video when I have the scriptures before me

TomFL said:
1 Cor. 10:13 —KJV
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

In your theology this verse is false the sin you committed was determined for you and there was no way to avoid it

TomFL said:
1 John 2:16 —KJV
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

but you turn scripture on its head and make he lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life from God

He saw the video then let him present the arguments rather than tell someone to go watch it

 

[TomFL]

Ignored? ?
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism


01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism


04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)

04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?

04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.



00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question


???



02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined and refuted
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

Yep…




01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined and refuted



02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"


00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question

Citing a video without actually citing content is not a real argument

You saw it so present the actual arguments instead of telling another to go to some 3 hour video

I will stay with scripture which make your theology unbiblical

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

TomFL said:
According to your theology God determined that lust

and the bible states it is not from God

I dont need to see a 3 hour video when I have the scriptures before me

TomFL said:
1 Cor. 10:13 —KJV
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

In your theology this verse is false the sin you committed was determined for you and there was no way to avoid it

TomFL said:
1 John 2:16 —KJV
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

If you have any real counter argument present them

 

[Sketo]

And I find it amusing
First by defining free will as doing what you want and stating all believe that
He is not refuting free will but affirming it

Affirming the biblical view that mans will is “voluntary” is not affirming your “wider” meaning above!

redefined of course but he is still affirming it

Redefined back to a “lesser” biblical meaning… yes! “Voluntary” never implies that your will is “free” from God!

LOL

The title of his op was just refuted

The title is referring to your “wider” meaning therefore it still stands!

second Theo I am not interrested in discussing a video but but the scriptural truth of the matter to that end

Oh you assumed that the video and list was posted for you… that’s amusing!

I noted the unbiblical nature of his position

???

Yep…

and the bible states it is not from God

3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to come to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

I dont need to see a 3 hour video when I have the scriptures before me

So you are determined not to watch the video by an external source. Amusing!
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism

0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question

He saw the video then let him present the arguments rather than tell someone to go watch it

The video is the response to ALL your arguments and those who watch it will see! That was the point of posting it!

 

[TomFL]

So you think Gen. 50:20 is "unbiblical"?
So you think Isa. 10:5-7 is "unbiblical"?
So you think Acts 4:27-28 is "unbiblical"?
So you think Rom. 3:19-20 is "unbiblical"?

Not one of those verses show God put the evil desire in their heart

Not one of those verses attributes all of man sinful thoughts, desires and deeds to God

and BTW

Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Is not even addressing the issue

 

[TomFL]

Affirming the biblical view that mans will is “voluntary” is not affirming your “wider” meaning above!

Er you defined free will as doing what you want

You stated all agree with that definition

Therefore you have not refuted free will you have affirmed it

again misdefined but affirmed

But the truth of the matter is no non Calvinist will accept the claims that that wanting what you were determined to want is free will

and you have not refuted what you call the wider position you merely stated go look at a video

that is not a argument if you believe it makes valid points you need to post them

and allow them to be rebutted

Instead of go see a video

address the scriptures you were given

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

TomFL said:
According to your theology God determined that lust

and the bible states it is not from God

I dont need to see a 3 hour video when I have the scriptures before me

TomFL said:
1 Cor. 10:13 —KJV
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

In your theology this verse is false the sin you committed was determined for you and there was no way to avoid it

TomFL said:
1 John 2:16 —KJV
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

use the argument you assume validates your position

if not you have done nothing but offered your opinion on some 3 hour video few have the time to watch and still post

 

[Sketo]

Er you defined free will as doing what you want
You stated all agree with that definition

Yep… nothing more than voluntary! This does not mean it’s not determined!

Therefore you have not refuted free will you have affirmed it

Never denied “voluntary” will! Are you meaning “more” than this?

But the truth of the matter is no non Calvinist will accept the claims that that wanting what you were determined to want is free will

Of course not… not without becoming Calvinists anyway.

04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

If you say “No” you have to deny ALL biblical examples…
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to come to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

and you have not refuted what you call the wider position you merely stated go look at a video

If by “wider” you mean “free from God” that is what the entire video destroys.

Specifficaly…
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11

Instead of go see a video

and the bible states it is not from God

“1Ki 22:19-23 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.”

Question: what was the “Ultimate cause” of the “Prophets” lying? Specifically!

if not you have done nothing but offered your opinion on some 3 hour video few have the time to watch and still post

That’s the point of the meticulous list of timestamps!

 

[TomFL]

Yep… nothing more than voluntary! This does not mean it’s not determined!


Never denied “voluntary” will! Are you meaning “more” than this?



Of course not… not without becoming Calvinists anyway.

04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

If you say “No” you have to deny ALL biblical examples…
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to come to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph



If by “wider” you mean “free from God” that is what the entire video destroys.

Specifficaly…
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11





“1Ki 22:19-23 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.”

Question: what was the “Ultimate cause” of the “Prophets” lying? Specifically!


That’s the point of the meticulous list of timestamps!

sor

Yep… nothing more than voluntary! This does not mean it’s not determined!


Never denied “voluntary” will! Are you meaning “more” than this?



Of course not… not without becoming Calvinists anyway.

04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

If you say “No” you have to deny ALL biblical examples…
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to come to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph



If by “wider” you mean “free from God” that is what the entire video destroys.

Specifficaly…
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11





“1Ki 22:19-23 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.”

Question: what was the “Ultimate cause” of the “Prophets” lying? Specifically!


That’s the point of the meticulous list of timestamps!

Sorry but go watch a video is not an argument

As I stated if you think the video has validity present the argument yourself

BTW your quote does nothing to show that every sinful thought, desire , lust, act comes from God

a claim which is clearly contrary to scripture

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

TomFL said:
According to your theology God determined that lust

and the bible states it is not from God 1Jn 2:16 below

TomFL said:
1 Cor. 10:13 —KJV
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

In your theology this verse is false the sin you committed was determined for you and there was no way to avoid it

TomFL said:
1 John 2:16 —KJV
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

your theology contradicts scripture

and taking a few isolated verses where God uses evil for a good purpose does not prove God therefore is the cause of all of man's evil

 

[His clay]

Because neither God's creation nor his foreknowledge are the causal instruments of my own destruction.



Because God values the autonomous ability of creation to glorify him over our own selfish desire that no one suffer.



God cannot create a true autonomy if he himself decides the autonomous outcome.



Because God values the autonomous ability of creation to glorify him over our own selfish desire that no one suffer.



Because free will nowhere logically necessitates that all available options be present.



A one-time decision producing eternal consequences does not logically contradict that decision being autonomous.



God can use free will decisions to help spread the Gospel without those decisions being necessarily meritorious in nature.



Because God values potentials and possibilities and opportunities to express the goodness of his nature.



I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive.



Because free will does not logically necessitate the elimination of God's will.



Because God instituted prayer and it finds its deepest meaning if done with a free will.



Fair is a complicated term used in relation to a moral compass of values perceived as justice, so God determines what fair is, not us.



I assume this means "Molinism"...



Bigger and better?! This is not a proper criterion.



Nothing makes God "bigger," God is limitless by definition.



Because it's unbiblical.



It's a theoretical possibility, but unbiblical.



Illogical.


Free will exegeted from Genesis 20:

The incoherency of libertarian free will

desire does not make a choice the person does Straw man critique. Saying that one's greatest desire is the cause of the choice is not at odds with saying that the person makes choices. It is just more specific; it states "what" of the person is the cause.

forums.carm.org

Free will Biblically defended:

Thoughts on Free Will — why I believe it, practical application, misunderstandings

I have come to realize there are Bible verses I simply cannot take “literally.” I have to interpret verses like “Whatsoever you ask in my name that you shall receive” in balance with other verses like “You ask and do not receive because you ask amiss.” But what this means is that no one can...

forums.carm.org

I'll be responding to the following. "Because neither God's creation nor his foreknowledge are the causal instruments of my own destruction." I'll ask what I think should be a rhetorical questions. So God's creation of the existence of a person has no bearing upon the existence of that person in hell? Is creation not a cause? Further, since God is omniscient does His knowledge not play a factor in what He knows will infallibly entail from His causal act of creating? Does God not know what His own creative acts will necessarily entail?

I'm not trying to be rude here. However, your comment seems like flat denial in the face of a clear, obvious instance of refutation. This is true because your comment seems to refuse to admit what necessarily entails from God's omniscient causal act of creating. It's like saying that a parent's knowledgeable decision to put the child in the highway has no causal bearing upon the child's destruction because the child decided to crawl in the path of the oncoming car.

 

[His clay]

sor

Sorry but go watch a video is not an argument

As I stated if you think the video has validity present the argument yourself

BTW your quote does nothing to show that every sinful thought, desire , lust, act comes from God

a claim which is clearly contrary to scripture






and the bible states it is not from God 1Jn 2:16 below









your theology contradicts scripture

and taking a few isolated verses where God uses evil for a good purpose does not prove God therefore is the cause of all of man's evil

Even granting your point regarding a few isolated verses (obvious well poisoning fallacy on your part) where God uses evil for a good purpose (your words), demonstrates that your interpretation of 1 John and James are off the mark. The exceptions you have allowed disprove your over-extention of John and James. Your self-contradiction is evident.

 

[His clay]

Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended.

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ “just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 "freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ️️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast

I've listened to the first 40 minutes at normal speed. I cannot address everything with the time that I have, so I'll briefly make a few comments. I've underlined key words and phrases, so that you can look at a glance and see the main issue of the paragraph.

(1) I completely appreciate the big three verses you have brought forward. There are actually more that say the same or similar. I've pushed the exact same issue for years now, and I've heard only ridiculous responses (God allows cretion to exist! lol, my personal favorite absurdity in response to Heb 1:3). My view on Hebrews 1:3 has changed slightly; I actually think that the verse is actually a bit stronger than "uphold," since the verb in question has strong temporal connotations and thusly I take it more in line that God brings to fruition the history of what He has made. But nothing has changed from the metaphysical relationship between God and creation with that newer understanding. God is still the metaphysical ground, and free will as autonomy from God cannot exist.

(2) My biggest criticism of the video is its redundancy. However, I must qualify this criticism with the fact that some people really do need the repetition. It is redundant for me because I've been familiar with this for years, but others may need the redundancy to aid their learning. There is a fine line for the use of repetition, and I can see both the positives and negatives.

(3) Semi-deism is an ok term to use. I'll think about it more in future days. I've personally tended to use the god-of-the-gaps terminology, since this is a common atheistic argument. The argument assumes that God's action and creation's action are both autonomous and mutually exclusive (which happens to be a very common assumption among the non-Calvinist group). If science points out how nature can do something, then God looses out. Eventually, with enough scientific explanation, then God is out of the job. And the atheist asks, rhetorically, what was the point of God in the first place? But the problem is with the autonomous assumption in the first place. The atheist does not realize that concurrence is a viable understanding of God's interaction with creation, which in turn makes his "science describes" point a completely moot point with respect to God's actions and working.

(4) "Acts 27" <--timestamp 36:06 . . . I think that you meant to say Acts 17:28. I also like to include the verses prior, since they directly and explicitly single out human beings.
"24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. (Act 17:24-25 ESV)"
Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit tells us that God is the creator of all, and He does not need anything from human beings, since He is the one who gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. This is a flat denial of autonomy from God.

(5) I really liked what you did with miracles. That is exactly where I'm at, and I think that it is a good response to Hume's criticism (violate the laws of nature).

(6) I like your point about freedom/autonomy from God being the crux or reference point. Regardless of what is said about human nature, if people are not metaphysically free from God, then the free will argument flops, hard. You did not state that human nature is irrelevant entirely, but that it was unimportant with respect to the issue you were raising.

These are a few of my thoughts. I hope that they were helpful.

 

[His clay]

But we can EASILY refute your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture.



First of all, this is NOT about "free will" regarding salvation, it is a letter written to Philemon, asking him to receive Onesimus back, as a brother in Christ, without punishing him for running away. He is hoping that Philemon will do so willingly, although Paul could make him do it.

All this means is that he doesn't want Onesimus to be "coerced" or "forced" to take him back, but to agree with Paul's view.

The Greek word translated as "free will" is "εκουσιος", and simply means "voluntarily":

BDAG:
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo) pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς). καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion


Mounce Greek Dictionary
ἑκούσιος hekousios voluntary, spontaneous,


Now, you tried to "bury" us in translations that rendered it, "free will". But I noticed that the bulk of them are translations nobody's ever heard of (eg. MRC), and even heretical Bibles known to be inaccurate (eg. NWT).

How do mainstream Bibles render the term?:

But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (KJV)

But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. (NKJV)

But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced (NLT)

But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. (NIV)

but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. (ESV)

However, without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness. (NET)

and apart from thy mind I willed to do nothing, that as of necessity thy good deed may not be, but of willingness, (YLT)

but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness: (DBY)

But without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (WEB)

sine consilio autem tuo nihil volui facere uti ne velut ex necessitate bonum tuum esset sed voluntarium (VUL)


So why didn't you quote any of THESE Bibles, Tom?

"εκούσιας" doesn't mean "free will" in the sense you want to project onto the term.
It simply means "voluntarily", "willingly", "without force", "without coercion".

Excellent! Top notch response

 

[His clay]

I find it amusing that the poster apparently wants to engage in discussion about the content of the video, but doesn't seem to want to actually watch the video.

I think he's afraid of what it might contain.

It's humorous to watch the poster flail about. I don't doubt the zeal, but it is so catastrophically misguided and ignorant.

 

[TomFL]

It's humorous to watch the poster flail about. I don't doubt the zeal, but it is so catastrophically misguided and ignorant.

What's humorous is you guys imagining you can arrive at biblical truth by appealing to a video which only has your opinion backing it up as truthful

What's humorous is none your peers are actually willing to post the actual arguments to be dealt with

Further neither you or peers have managed to show ignorance

 

[TomFL]

Excellent! Top notch response

Not really as the issue was just free will

Not just the application of it to salvation

I have posted over 20 verses that read free will

Will you just ignore that

Further as noted voluntary is a synonym for free will

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
   synonyms:
   volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference
   
   
   So his post does nothing at all to counter what I stated
   
   
   
   
   
   

 

[Theo1689]

What's humorous is you guys imagining you can arrive at biblical truth by appealing to a video which only has your opinion backing it up as truthful

How do you know the video is "only opinion"?
How do you know the video doesn't have compelling supporting evidence?

You see, here's the problem...
If you watch the video, you may actually LEARN something. You may learn that you're wrong, or you may learn that there are other arguments that you need to address.

But if you don't watch the video, you don't learn anything. You simply remain stagnant, and you don't grow. But again, the "positive" is that you avoid learning something which might prove you wrong.

What's humorous is none your peers are actually willing to post the actual arguments to be dealt with

If you're not going to watch a video, why would anyone think you would bother to read posts which contain those same arguments? And it might very well be that the video is the better medium for providing visual evidence.

I think part of it is that you don't actually want to learn anything, you only want to ARGUE with people. That's what you live for, ARGUING.

But you can't argue with a video.
And you can't argue with a book.
Because they don't respond back.

So you only want to engage with people whom you can argue with, because you only live to argue.