No Salvation Without the Human Element

[GeneZ]

Well was man alive to God once in the beginning in Adam ? 1 Cor 15 22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If that were so? We will all be judged by having Adam judged, not ourselves.

 

[brightfame52]

As far as spiritually ? We were all spiritual stillborns from Adam.
As far as physically? We all eventually die physically from Adam.

In Adam all died spiritually. In contrast, many have been made alive "physically" in Adam. Only to die.

Jesus called physically alive unbelievers "dead." Spiritually dead.

We were never spiritually alive until we were found in Christ.
To be resurrected we would have needed to have been alive first, and then died.

Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Matthew 8:21-22

The resurrection from being dead because of Adam is a better spiritual life, than in Adam. But nevertheless, man is dead spiritually and to God, until resurrected.

 

[GeneZ]

The resurrection from being dead because of Adam is a better spiritual life, than in Adam. But nevertheless, man is dead spiritually and to God, until resurrected.

Too much ambiguity.. What kind of resurrection do you speak of? Is there more than one resurrection for believers?

Are you saying that we are all spiritually dead until THE resurrection takes place and we are given a body just like His own?

 

[brightfame52]

Too much ambiguity.. What kind of resurrection do you speak of? Is there more than one resurrection for believers?

Are you saying that we are all spiritually dead until THE resurrection takes place and we are given a body just like His own?

Lol A resurrection from the dead, death. Well the believer before they believed were resurrected from death in Adam with Spritual life, a life more valuable than they lost in Adam. The Believer if the die physically, they will undergo a physical resurrection in the last say. So Christ gives resurrection from the dead, why is that difficult for you to believe ?

 

[GeneZ]

Lol A resurrection from the dead, death. Well the believer before they believed were resurrected from death in Adam with Spritual life, a life more valuable than they lost in Adam. The Believer if the die physically, they will undergo a physical resurrection in the last say. So Christ gives resurrection from the dead, why is that difficult for you to believe ?

Its not difficult to believe. Its just not what the Word of God tells us. Unless you begin to copy and paste Scripture to justify your claim? I have nothing but your opinion to go by. I would like to learn about this if it were true. But, so far. You refuse to do a little work to copy and paste Scripture so I can have something to think with. Don't just cite chapter and verse. Copy and past.

Just go to biblegateway.com and copy and paste here. You can choose from many translations.

"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." - John 17:17

If you learn (take the time) to do that? You may find others being more receptive.

I have a feeling you might be onto something.

But as you presented it? I can only shrug my shoulders, and wonder where in Scripture you are getting your idea from.

 

[brightfame52]

Its not difficult to believe. Its just not what the Word of God tells us. Unless you begin to copy and paste Scripture to justify your claim? I have nothing but your opinion to go by. I would like to learn about this if it were true. But, so far. You refuse to do a little work to copy and paste Scripture so I can have something to think with. Don't just cite chapter and verse. Copy and past.

Just go to biblegateway.com and copy and paste here. You can choose from many translations.

"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." - John 17:17

If you learn (take the time) to do that? You may find others being more receptive.

I have a feeling you might be onto something.

But as you presented it? I can only shrug my shoulders, and wonder where in Scripture you are getting your idea from.

If you dont believe men by nature are dead spiritually, thats fine. You have seen enough scripture about men dead in sin naturally

 

[GeneZ]

If you dont believe men by nature are dead spiritually, thats fine. You have seen enough scripture about men dead in sin naturally

I have been saying that all along.

Are you just doing this to try to make me feel frustrated?

How can I have a dialog with you if your comprehension is so skewed?

 

[GeneZ]

?

Its the depravity of the flesh that prevents men from believing. As demonstrated with believers, when the Spirit controls our flesh we are made free to serve the Lord. That is the grace God gives the humble believers.

God uses a similar mechanism when the Gospel is given to the unbeliever. Those hearing are having the depravity of their flesh controlled by the Spirit's power, thus freeing up their souls to determine for themself what they want to believe. No excuse. For its their soul making the choice while under grace. That is why we must be saved by GRACE! Faith then comes by hearing the Word of salvation and choosing to believe it!

The unbeliever does not have to understand the deep spiritual things to be saved. Everyone knows he is a sinner. You do not have to be spiritually alive to know that much. And, in knowing they are sinners? There is the Cross. They must decide.

 

[guest1]

The Calvinist system of theology denies through their man made doctrines that salvation is by faith in what God says. Anyone reading this forum would understand that. Does that mean that everyone involved in the Calvinist system are unsaved? No, I don't think so because salvation is a one time event called the new birth and no matter what happens to a person after that the saved person will always be a son of God. Most, if not all Calvinists, did not come to Christ by the evangelistic efforts of Reformed evangelists or teachers. They were proselytized by this system and because the proper response by true bible believers of the past have not rightly categorized Calvinism as a dangerous cult many unsuspecting Christians have fallen for it and have even become promoters of it. This is a great, great error. I can find no doctrines of Calvinism that are not based on faulty logic and an unreasonable approach to commonly accepted hermeneutical principles of interpretation.

Take. for instance, my title above. It would be reasonable to believe what God says on this subject, which is a lot. Let's just look at one example where he says the human element must be present for salvation to occur. This is in the express context of salvation.


Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Okay, what would prompt a sinner to call upon the name of the Lord for salvation? Are we told? You be the judge.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
.
Now, notice what God says in his instructional letters to the churches about how God, the chooser of all things, makes sinners aware of their needs.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you (romans = gentiles) according to my gospel (see Eph 3:1-6), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (this mystery is a reference to the "mystery of Christ" the theme of the epistle to the Ephesians), which was kept secret since (since, not before) the world began,

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

If gentiles hear they can be saved and that is the stated intent of God sending Paul to be the apostle to the gentiles. It is a reasonable conclusion, given the evidence of what he said about himself, about, God, and about the people he was sent to. Logic says If God will not save gentiles unless they hear the gospel, then they must hear the gospel to be saved. Logic also says they must have a preacher.

The question is raised by verse 17 of 2 Tim 4 that I have quoted above, did all the gentiles hear the gospel of Christ like Paul claims? I say yes, not because I can figure it out but simply because he said it under the inspiration of God. God would know. Let me give you a quote from a letter Paul wrote to a church in AD 60. This is 33 years after Paul was converted on the Damascus Road in chapter 9 of Acts. This is 25 years after the gentiles first received gospel preaching through Peter in Acts 10. What does Paul say?

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Does anyone believe Col 1:23 above? Define creature. Define under heaven. Define who Paul was made a minister to. Define past tense of the verb "preached."

In future posts I will prove that God has chosen the human element to save the reader, if indeed he is saved. He is not saved if there was no human element involved. God always gives us a physical illustration of his spiritual truths and he has given a great one to prove these truths I have given today. We will talk about it as time goes on.

Excellent!