Pope backs civil unions

[organgrinder]

sounds like you are your own authority, correct?

In addition, you will not Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures daily to see if what even Paul was teaching was correct. Why was that? Paul knew men are fallible but the word of God was not fallible. God gave us in Ephesians 5 pastors, teachers, etc., to equip the saints. Equip them for what? Ministry to others. That mean they needed to know the word of God in order to minister and also to teach and make disciples of others. It wasn't just for special folk. It was for everybody for all believers have the Holy Spirit within them.

Paul also warned in Acts 20:29 what eventually would happen to the churches. He was warning the appointed elders and leaders. Why? To insure they would teach others the proper doctrines and that those doctrines and teachings would be handed down. It wasn't just for the elders and teachers but for all believers. Paul gave an admonition to be diligent to be approved (the King James and even your venerable Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible uses the word "study") by God to divide the word of truth.

All believers are priests. The word says we are a holy priesthood. Our sacrifices are now praise and thanksgiving. ` We have that authority to minister in the name (authority) of Jesus.

Jesus is my authority. The written word of God is my standard and the Holy Spirit is my teacher.

Who is yours?

 

[ramcam2]

The Bible is the final authority used to determine beliefs, faith and morals as taught by the Holy Spirit Who leads us into all truth. That coupled with others in the Body of Christ and fellowshipping locally in congregations keeps a person centered on the person and work Jesus entrusted and commanded we do-- make disciples (not church converts) and baptize in the the trinitarian formula of Matthew 28.

You seem to think people can't understand what the written Word of God says unless there is a priest/bishop/cardinal or pope to explain it. You would be wrong...very wrong.

of course, people can understand but in your case, are you always correct and no way you can get it wrong?

 

[ramcam2]

In addition, you will not Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures daily to see if what even Paul was teaching was correct. Why was that? Paul knew men are fallible but the word of God was not fallible. God gave us in Ephesians 5 pastors, teachers, etc., to equip the saints. Equip them for what? Ministry to others. That mean they needed to know the word of God in order to minister and also to teach and make disciples of others. It wasn't just for special folk. It was for everybody for all believers have the Holy Spirit within them.

Paul also warned in Acts 20:29 what eventually would happen to the churches. He was warning the appointed elders and leaders. Why? To insure they would teach others the proper doctrines and that those doctrines and teachings would be handed down. It wasn't just for the elders and teachers but for all believers. Paul gave an admonition to be diligent to be approved (the King James and even your venerable Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible uses the word "study") by God to divide the word of truth.

All believers are priests. The word says we are a holy priesthood. Our sacrifices are now praise and thanksgiving. ` We have that authority to minister in the name (authority) of Jesus.

Jesus is my authority. The written word of God is my standard and the Holy Spirit is my teacher.

Who is yours?

God revealed his divine truth to Jesus, and Jesus to his apostles whom he commanded to spread it to the whole world. Since they could not do this in their lifetime, the apostles appointed men who in turn will appoint also others in this evangelization (2 Timothy 2:2). Paul insisted in the necessity of a divinely establieshed mission (Romans 10: 8-19). Your organization may have noble intentions in spreading the word of God, but are you absolutely sure it is divine truth? who sent you/your church to preach?

 

[mica]

of course, people can understand but in your case, are you always correct and no way you can get it wrong?

why can't catholics?

 

[organgrinder]

God revealed his divine truth to Jesus, and Jesus to his apostles whom he commanded to spread it to the whole world. Since they could not do this in their lifetime, the apostles appointed men who in turn will appoint also others in this evangelization (2 Timothy 2:2). Paul insisted in the necessity of a divinely establieshed mission (Romans 10: 8-19). Your organization may have noble intentions in spreading the word of God, but are you absolutely sure it is divine truth? who sent you/your church to preach?

Jesus did in Matthew 28:18-20. That commission was for all believers, not just a select few in a "hierarchy". Who sent you?

In an earlier post on this thread I wrote the following:

All believers are priests. The word says we are a holy priesthood. Our sacrifices are now praise and thanksgiving. ` We have that authority to minister in the name (authority) of Jesus.

Jesus is my authority. The written word of God is my standard and the Holy Spirit is my teacher.

Who is yours?

You have yet to answer the question and deflected to other items.

Waiting.

 

[ramcam2]

why can't catholics?

yes like you we can also err, but we have a living infallible authority to correct us. how about you?

 

[ramcam2]

Jesus did in Matthew 28:18-20. That commission was for all believers, not just a select few in a "hierarchy". Who sent you?

In an earlier post on this thread I wrote the following:

All believers are priests. The word says we are a holy priesthood. Our sacrifices are now praise and thanksgiving. ` We have that authority to minister in the name (authority) of Jesus.

Jesus is my authority. The written word of God is my standard and the Holy Spirit is my teacher.

Who is yours?

You have yet to answer the question and deflected to other items.

Waiting.

I agree that Jesus is our authority but in the bible Jesus proclaims he is sending them as the Father has sent him, which illustrates how much Jesus empowers the apostles in leading his Church. As the bible makes clear elsewhere, Jesus sends his apostles with “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18), because that’s precisely how the Father has sent him in carrying out this divine mission. This authority extends beyond the lives of his first apostles, as the 11 choose Matthias, an apostolic successor (episkopos/bishop), to take the place of Judas (Acts 1:12-26). Apostolic succession is a primary/fundamental way Jesus fulfill his promise, “And lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Matthew 28:20).

Now, your turn to tell us how you/your pastor got the authority from Jesus to preach by showing to us your apostolic lineage. Can you do that, thanks.

 

[mica]

ramcam2 said:
of course, people can understand but in your case, are you always correct and no way you can get it wrong?

mica said:
why can't catholics?

yes like you we can also err,

catholics don't attempt to understamd His word. if they did they'd be reading it and researching it - actually seeking His word. but they don't do that, they just blindly believe what the rcc tells them.

but we have a living infallible authority to correct us.

no, you don't. that's another lie the rcc feeds you.

how about you?

I have Him in my heart and I also have the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. those give me the desire to know and understand His word, not that of man.

 

[organgrinder]

I agree that Jesus is our authority but in the bible Jesus proclaims he is sending them as the Father has sent him, which illustrates how much Jesus empowers the apostles in leading his Church. As the bible makes clear elsewhere, Jesus sends his apostles with “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18), because that’s precisely how the Father has sent him in carrying out this divine mission. This authority extends beyond the lives of his first apostles, as the 11 choose Matthias, an apostolic successor (episkopos/bishop), to take the place of Judas (Acts 1:12-26). Apostolic succession is a primary/fundamental way Jesus fulfill his promise, “And lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Matthew 28:20).

Now, your turn to tell us how you/your pastor got the authority from Jesus to preach by showing to us your apostolic lineage. Can you do that, thanks.

Our authority comes from Jesus. Each believer has the Holy Spirit residing inside. Jesus gave gifts to the church in apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, etc. The Lord gives those gifts and ministries to the church (body of believers, not an institution) as He sees fit for the equipping of the saints (the believers). It is then replicated when other disciples are made.
The apostolic calling comes from Jesus. It has been that way since the beginning of the church. Your mistake is letting that calling reside in a few men, one of whom allegedly speaks infallibly "ex cathedra" on matters of faith and morals. We all know too much of that ex cathedra baloney is not rooted in scripture but rather power and non-biblical "sacred tradition" which can't be quantified other than "we believe it so it must be true".

Your other mistake is believing that the "church" is centered in the Roman Catholic Church. The universal church which has Jesus as Lord and Savior, believes in salvation by grace alone and the written word of God as the sole standard goes back to the writers of the New Testament inspired by the Holy Spirit. Those are the original Fathers of the Church.

The more I study Catholicism which I came out of in 1982 -- attending Catholic grade and high schools-- the more I see parallels with Mormonism. Now, Mormon doctrine is messed up on the nature of God, Jesus and salvation. However there are striking similarities. Mormons have a "living prophet" who allegedly hears directly from God. Theirs is the "only true church" on earth. Catholics believe the RCC is the only true church. Mormons have additional scriptures they hold as sacred. Catholic have "sacred tradition" which accounts for non-biblical doctrines found in Mariology, purgatory, etc. Mormon must adhere to what their church says. Catholics must adhere to additional teachings and requirements to be in good standing (financial support, attendance at Mass, annual confession, etc.).

Mormons and Catholics have much that is non-biblical. That is why the Bible itself is the authority we refer to to test all things. Mormons and Catholics are in agreement on that issue-- they don't like that one bit.

 

[mica]

...

The more I study Catholicism which I came out of in 1982 -- attending Catholic grade and high schools-- the more I see parallels with Mormonism. Now, Mormon doctrine is messed up on the nature of God, Jesus and salvation. However there are striking similarities. Mormons have a "living prophet" who allegedly hears directly from God. Theirs is the "only true church" on earth. Catholics believe the RCC is the only true church. Mormons have additional scriptures they hold as sacred. Catholic have "sacred tradition" which accounts for non-biblical doctrines found in Mariology, purgatory, etc. Mormon must adhere to what their church says. Catholics must adhere to additional teachings and requirements to be in good standing (financial support, attendance at Mass, annual confession, etc.).

Mormons and Catholics have much that is non-biblical. That is why the Bible itself is the authority we refer to to test all things. Mormons and Catholics are in agreement on that issue-- they don't like that one bit.

yes, I've found that also over the years. i spent a decade or so on a forum with lots of mormons and lots of catholics who would have long detailed discussions about their relgions. It revealed a lot of similarities.

 

[ramcam2]

Our authority comes from Jesus. Each believer has the Holy Spirit residing inside. Jesus gave gifts to the church in apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, etc. The Lord gives those gifts and ministries to the church (body of believers, not an institution) as He sees fit for the equipping of the saints (the believers). It is then replicated when other disciples are made.
The apostolic calling comes from Jesus. It has been that way since the beginning of the church. Your mistake is letting that calling reside in a few men, one of whom allegedly speaks infallibly "ex cathedra" on matters of faith and morals. We all know too much of that ex cathedra baloney is not rooted in scripture but rather power and non-biblical "sacred tradition" which can't be quantified other than "we believe it so it must be true".

Your other mistake is believing that the "church" is centered in the Roman Catholic Church. The universal church which has Jesus as Lord and Savior, believes in salvation by grace alone and the written word of God as the sole standard goes back to the writers of the New Testament inspired by the Holy Spirit. Those are the original Fathers of the Church.

The more I study Catholicism which I came out of in 1982 -- attending Catholic grade and high schools-- the more I see parallels with Mormonism. Now, Mormon doctrine is messed up on the nature of God, Jesus and salvation. However there are striking similarities. Mormons have a "living prophet" who allegedly hears directly from God. Theirs is the "only true church" on earth. Catholics believe the RCC is the only true church. Mormons have additional scriptures they hold as sacred. Catholic have "sacred tradition" which accounts for non-biblical doctrines found in Mariology, purgatory, etc. Mormon must adhere to what their church says. Catholics must adhere to additional teachings and requirements to be in good standing (financial support, attendance at Mass, annual confession, etc.).

Mormons and Catholics have much that is non-biblical. That is why the Bible itself is the authority we refer to to test all things. Mormons and Catholics are in agreement on that issue-- they don't like that one bit.

In 1cor12: 27-29 and eph4:11-12), Paul makes clear that apostles have the highest level of authority in the Church which is based on the decree of Jesus in john20:21, as the Father has sent me, I also send you. Jesus send his apostles on this divine mandate (matt28: 16-20) and promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This promise he gave only to his apostles in the upper room at the Last Supper (John 16:13). This promise extends to the apostles’ ongoing successors as well, for “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists . . . for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ” (eph4: 11-12). Jesus is the head and all the faithful belonging to the one body is organized and united to it (v. 15-16).

Paul is saying otherwise . He requires the bible and sacred/apostolic tradition in 2thess2:15,... to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit “Christ’s word” to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing... “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10:17).

There is a big difference between the Catholic faith and Mormonism. This is not the proper thread to discuss it further.

 

[ramcam2]

catholics don't attempt to understamd His word. if they did they'd be reading it and researching it - actually seeking His word. but they don't do that, they just blindly believe what the rcc tells them.


no, you don't. that's another lie the rcc feeds you.


I have Him in my heart and I also have the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. those give me the desire to know and understand His word, not that of man.

every protestant says they are guided by the holy spirit and yet there are many different denominations with different doctrines depending on the personal interpretation of the bible by their pastor. looks like the holy of truth is not doing a good job

 

[organgrinder]

In 1cor12: 27-29 and eph4:11-12), Paul makes clear that apostles have the highest level of authority in the Church which is based on the decree of Jesus in john20:21, as the Father has sent me, I also send you. Jesus send his apostles on this divine mandate (matt28: 16-20) and promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This promise he gave only to his apostles in the upper room at the Last Supper (John 16:13). This promise extends to the apostles’ ongoing successors as well, for “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists . . . for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ” (eph4: 11-12). Jesus is the head and all the faithful belonging to the one body is organized and united to it (v. 15-16).

Paul is saying otherwise . He requires the bible and sacred/apostolic tradition in 2thess2:15,... to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit “Christ’s word” to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing... “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10:17).

There is a big difference between the Catholic faith and Mormonism. This is not the proper thread to discuss it further.

And the "traditions" are simply teachings. That is what the word means. It is not an "out" for any doctrinal pronouncements such as found in Mariology. Oral teachings will not contradict the written word of God...ever. Catholic "traditions" are similar to Mormon continued new revelations which are not found in God's written word. That is why we have God's written word. This is why Jesus quoted the written word and head slapped the religious leaders for following their "traditions" which added to the written word. Jesus showed us we could trust the written word, for He was the living Word. It spoke of Him. Traditions of the religious leaders didn't and traditions/sacred traditions of the RCC don't either.

And what Jesus said in John and Matthew applies to all believers, for all have the same Holy Spirit. Just because on has an office (pastor, teacher, etc.) Makes them no more special in God's eyes that the brand new believer. Those called will have greater responsibility.

 

[ramcam2]

And the "traditions" are simply teachings. That is what the word means. It is not an "out" for any doctrinal pronouncements such as found in Mariology. Oral teachings will not contradict the written word of God...ever. Catholic "traditions" are similar to Mormon continued new revelations which are not found in God's written word. That is why we have God's written word. This is why Jesus quoted the written word and head slapped the religious leaders for following their "traditions" which added to the written word. Jesus showed us we could trust the written word, for He was the living Word. It spoke of Him. Traditions of the religious leaders didn't and traditions/sacred traditions of the RCC don't either.

And what Jesus said in John and Matthew applies to all believers, for all have the same Holy Spirit. Just because on has an office (pastor, teacher, etc.) Makes them no more special in God's eyes that the brand new believer. Those called will have greater responsibility.

not just simply teachings but the revelation of God to his son, Jesus, and taught by Jesus to the apostles. this is why the term apostolic/sacred traditions to distinguish it from the traditions of men. where can we find this apostolic/sacred traditions? it was orally passed on before most of it were were put in writing.

read your bible, jesus passed this divine mandate with the guidance of the holy spirit only to his apostles and their successors, not to every christian believers.

 

[organgrinder]

not just simply teachings but the revelation of God to his son, Jesus, and taught by Jesus to the apostles. this is why the term apostolic/sacred traditions to distinguish it from the traditions of men. where can we find this apostolic/sacred traditions? it was orally passed on before most of it were were put in writing.

read your bible, jesus passed this divine mandate with the guidance of the holy spirit only to his apostles and their successors, not to every christian believers.

And none of those sacred traditions Jesus supposedly taught the apostles involved Mariology, Purgatory, indulgences, etc. None of those alleged traditions were reduced to writing or they would have appeared in the New Testament. Jesus did not create a special class of believers in apostles, prophets, etc. Those were simply offices, not super spiritual folks with a direct line to heaven. All biblical born again Christians have the same access to God and the Holy Spirit's teachings.

You are very wrong. Your inability to understand and believe scripture showcases it.

 

[organgrinder]

not just simply teachings but the revelation of God to his son, Jesus, and taught by Jesus to the apostles. this is why the term apostolic/sacred traditions to distinguish it from the traditions of men. where can we find this apostolic/sacred traditions? it was orally passed on before most of it were were put in writing.

read your bible, jesus passed this divine mandate with the guidance of the holy spirit only to his apostles and their successors, not to every christian believers.

In 1cor12: 27-29 and eph4:11-12), Paul makes clear that apostles have the highest level of authority in the Church which is based on the decree of Jesus in john20:21, as the Father has sent me, I also send you. Jesus send his apostles on this divine mandate (matt28: 16-20) and promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This promise he gave only to his apostles in the upper room at the Last Supper (John 16:13). This promise extends to the apostles’ ongoing successors as well, for “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists . . . for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ” (eph4: 11-12). Jesus is the head and all the faithful belonging to the one body is organized and united to it (v. 15-16).

Paul is saying otherwise . He requires the bible and sacred/apostolic tradition in 2thess2:15,... to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit “Christ’s word” to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing... “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10:17).

There is a big difference between the Catholic faith and Mormonism. This is not the proper thread to discuss it further.

Must be afraid to see those similarities. Got it.

 

[mica]

every protestant says they are guided by the holy spirit

no they don't. where'd you get that? the rcc? other catholics? many prots aren't even believers in Christ and have no idea they should have Him in their life. others have heard they should but have no idea how, when or why.

and yet there are many different denominations with different doctrines depending on the personal interpretation of the bible by their pastor.

right. there are lots of 'pastors' everywhere who aren't believers and teach whatever they've been taught to teach instead of the truth of it - just like catholic priests do.

how many divisions are there in the rcc now?

looks like the holy of truth is not doing a good job

what's that? something you made up?

 

[ramcam2]

no they don't. where'd you get that? the rcc? other catholics? many prots aren't even believers in Christ and have no idea they should have Him in their life. others have heard they should but have no idea how, when or why.


right. there are lots of 'pastors' everywhere who aren't believers and teach whatever they've been taught to teach instead of the truth of it - just like catholic priests do.

how many divisions are there in the rcc now?


what's that? something you made up?

are you guided by the holy spirit?

 

[ramcam2]

Must be afraid to see those similarities. Got it.

why not start a thread on it for catholics to respond?

 

[ramcam2]

And none of those sacred traditions Jesus supposedly taught the apostles involved Mariology, Purgatory, indulgences, etc. None of those alleged traditions were reduced to writing or they would have appeared in the New Testament. Jesus did not create a special class of believers in apostles, prophets, etc. Those were simply offices, not super spiritual folks with a direct line to heaven. All biblical born again Christians have the same access to God and the Holy Spirit's teachings.

You are very wrong. Your inability to understand and believe scripture showcases it.

well, not what the apostolic church is saying.