In Christ

[armylngst]

Sorry but Not according to this text

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

or these

Eph. 1:1 —NET
“¶ From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints [in Ephesus], the faithful in Christ Jesus.”

Eph. 1:1 —CSB17
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: ¶ To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.”

Eph. 1:1 —NASB
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:1 —NIV11-GK
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:1 —NKJV
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Don't know how you missed these

and the we are those seen above the faithful in Christ

You missed it

I missed the fact that Paul said "US" and not "Y'ALL", or "THEM"? The fact that he said us, he included himself, the saints who are in Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. What I quoted was from the literal translation.

The literally from the Greek version:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

21st century KJV:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

ASV:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are [a]at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

BRG:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

CSB:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus[a] at Ephesus.[b]

CJB:
1 From: Sha’ul, by God’s will an emissary of the Messiah Yeshua To: God’s people living in Ephesus, that is, those who are trusting in the Messiah Yeshua:

Geneva Bible 1599:
1 Paul [a]an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the Saints, which are at Ephesus, and to the [b]faithful in Christ Jesus:

Holmann:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.[a]

KJV:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

AKJV (the King James Only version):
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

There are quite a few versions that disagree with you, but where they definitely don't agree with you is where the versions show that these are those who are born again, saved. There are those who believe it was addressed the way it was, to include faithful separate from the Ephesians because the letter was meant to be passed around to several different locations.

 

[TomFL]

I missed the fact that Paul said "US" and not "Y'ALL", or "THEM"? The fact that he said us, he included himself, the saints who are in Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. What I quoted was from the literal translation.

The literally from the Greek version:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

21st century KJV:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

ASV:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are [a]at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

BRG:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

CSB:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus[a] at Ephesus.[b]

CJB:
1 From: Sha’ul, by God’s will an emissary of the Messiah Yeshua To: God’s people living in Ephesus, that is, those who are trusting in the Messiah Yeshua:

Geneva Bible 1599:
1 Paul [a]an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the Saints, which are at Ephesus, and to the [b]faithful in Christ Jesus:

Holmann:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.[a]

KJV:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

AKJV (the King James Only version):
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

There are quite a few versions that disagree with you, but where they definitely don't agree with you is where the versions show that these are those who are born again, saved. There are those who believe it was addressed the way it was, to include faithful separate from the Ephesians because the letter was meant to be passed around to several different locations.

There were many even among those you gave that agree with the reading I showed

As for your claim they disagree with me

How can you conclude the word saints refers to unbelievers ?

rather I would state all versions disagree with you

 

[armylngst]

Maybe I have misread you. I don't do well when posts get too long. Anyway, may God bless you in your study and life

To understand better, I believe that the choosing in the verse, and the ultimate salvation of believers are very much connected. No need to change the verse to say that, because there are other passages that reinforce this. (Such as John 6.) The newest issue is that somehow, Tom, says that when God chose according to the good pleasure of His will, that somehow that means that God had conditions, and the condition for God choosing those He chose in Him before the foundation of the world is that they have faith. Somehow, that is absolutely not present in this verse, or even in the passage. I'm pretty sure that by saying "according to the good pleasure of His will", is His way of saying that it was unconditional. Nothing anyone did, is doing, or would do, solely the good pleasure of His will.

 

[TomFL]

To understand better, I believe that the choosing in the verse, and the ultimate salvation of believers are very much connected. No need to change the verse to say that, because there are other passages that reinforce this. (Such as John 6.) The newest issue is that somehow, Tom, says that when God chose according to the good pleasure of His will, that somehow that means that God had conditions, and the condition for God choosing those He chose in Him before the foundation of the world is that they have faith. Somehow, that is absolutely not present in this verse, or even in the passage. I'm pretty sure that by saying "according to the good pleasure of His will", is His way of saying that it was unconditional. Nothing anyone did, is doing, or would do, solely the good pleasure of His will.

What ? God cannot choose under what conditions he desires to save ?.

You provide no evidence that according to the good please of his will is unconditional

Can you deny this is his will

Eph. 1:8–10 —KJV
“Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

you can only assume God unconditionally selects men to be in Christ as the bible never states it

 

[armylngst]

There were many even among those you gave that agree with the reading I showed

As for your claim they disagree with me

How can you conclude the word saints refers to unbelievers ?

rather I would state all versions disagree with you

I don't equate saints with unbelievers. Saints are those who are part of the body of Christ. What I see is him addressing the church at Ephesus, and then those who are outside of Ephesus who are believers reading the letter to the believers in Ephesus. (Some believe that this letter was intended for more than just the Ephesians, and that Ephesus was just the first group to get and read the letter before passing it on.) So for me, US is the church (believers/body of Christ) corporate (what is said is true for every believer, as it is for the group). It really is that simple. There are those who point out that there are manuscripts that don't even say the saints at Ephesus, as "at Ephesus" is absent from those manuscripts.

Once again I view salvation as a whole, from before the foundation of the world until now (temporally speaking, not eternally speaking), as God chose us believers in Christ past, believers in Christ now, and believers in Christ future, before the foundation of the world in Christ, to be Christ's sheep. We are born lost sheep, we hear and discern the voice of our Great Shepherd Christ in the preaching of the Gospel, but the working of the Holy Spirit, and we come to Him [as sheep]. We don't become sheep, we were born sheep, we find our Shepherd (savior), and we die sheep. Anyone who wasn't chosen is the other group mentioned in Revelation, the goats. They are born goats, they live doing goat things, and then die as goats. Goats do not become sheep, and sheep do not become goats. Sheep become found sheep, because they all start out lost. Once again, I believe that if someone is truly saved, a saint, a member of the body of Christ, it is because God chose them before the foundation of the world.

 

[armylngst]

What ? God cannot choose under what conditions he desires to save ?.

If that is your argument, it is very weak. He clearly states here that it was solely according to the good pleasure of His will. What He can or cannot do is not in question, what is in question is what He did. A come back argument of saying, what, He can't do this, is weak and baseless. He can choose, He did, and He told us that He had no conditions, that it was according to the good pleasure of His will. Isn't that pretty close to saying He chose...on a whim? There are examples of this in scripture, that go right along with my argument, but not yours.

You provide no evidence that according to the good please of his will is unconditional

When something is understood, such as the English language, one does not need evidence. Does 2+2=4 require evidence? I mean, really? Do you even understand, in English, what a phrase worded as "according to the good pleasure of His will" means? When taken together with the choosing, it means He chose you...if He felt like it. One of these, you know, I'm feeling gracious today...I pardon you, I pardon you...without taking any time to pay attention to who they may be. It is without condition, and without merit. Why? Because He is GOD. I mean, is there anything left to say after that, or is that not enough for you? If it isn't, then just who do you worship?

Can you deny this is his will


Eph. 1:8–10 —KJV
“Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

you can only assume God unconditionally selects men to be in Christ as the bible never states it

Look at it this way. God is in heaven, before the foundation of the world, and goes to choose people. He stops for a moment and says, OK, need the clip board with the conditions I need to see met when I choose. On the clipboard, all it says is, choose how you feel like. Can you really say that that is a condition an object or person can meet? I mean, how can I "be how He feels like"? Why doesn't that makes sense? Because it actually means unconditional. We do nothing. Nothing we do, no merit, ho honor, changes the "good pleasure of His will". The choice is solely contingent on...God. That is not a condition. I understand you believe that men hold sway over God, because He's just like one of us, nothing special, but I don't.

 

[TomFL]

I don't equate saints with unbelievers. S

So if yio do not you have no objection to what i noted

There were many even among those you gave that agree with the reading I showed

As for your claim they disagree with me

How can you conclude the word saints refers to unbelievers ?

rather I would state all versions disagree with you

 

[TomFL]

If that is your argument, it is very weak. He clearly states here that it was solely according to the good pleasure of His will. What He can or cannot do is not in question, what is in question is what He did. A come back argument of saying, what, He can't do this, is weak and baseless. He can choose, He did, and He told us that He had no conditions, that it was according to the good pleasure of His will. Isn't that pretty close to saying He chose...on a whim? There are examples of this in scripture, that go right along with my argument, but not yours.

You completely ignored what i posted

What ? God cannot choose under what conditions he desires to save ?.

You provide no evidence that according to the good please of his will is unconditional

Can you deny this is his will

Eph. 1:8–10 —KJV
“Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

and are we not told how one becomes in Christ ?

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

you have only assumed God unconditionally selects men to be in Christ as the bible never states it

You failed to address the scripture I posted and just repeated you assumption that the good please of his will means he arbitrarily selected some with no conditions to be in Christ

It is an assumption you offer without a biblical text in support and

Assumption is not solid grounds for labeling any argument weak

Provide evidence and deal with opposing argument for assumption does not advance your position

 

[Sethproton]

To understand better, I believe that the choosing in the verse, and the ultimate salvation of believers are very much connected. No need to change the verse to say that, because there are other passages that reinforce this. (Such as John 6.) The newest issue is that somehow, Tom, says that when God chose according to the good pleasure of His will, that somehow that means that God had conditions, and the condition for God choosing those He chose in Him before the foundation of the world is that they have faith. Somehow, that is absolutely not present in this verse, or even in the passage. I'm pretty sure that by saying "according to the good pleasure of His will", is His way of saying that it was unconditional. Nothing anyone did, is doing, or would do, solely the good pleasure of His

There is a condition in the verse: "in Christ"

 

[TomFL]

There is a condition in the verse: "in Christ"

Yes as he was told

Can you deny this is his will

Eph. 1:8–10 —KJV
“Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

that is a condition

 

[brightfame52]

There is a condition in the verse: "in Christ"

Which God met Himself before the foundation of the World. He put people in Christ, by choosing them in Him before the foundation Eph 1 4

 

[brightfame52]

You completely ignored what i posted

What ? God cannot choose under what conditions he desires to save ?.

You provide no evidence that according to the good please of his will is unconditional

Can you deny this is his will

Eph. 1:8–10 —KJV
“Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

and are we not told how one becomes in Christ ?

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

you have only assumed God unconditionally selects men to be in Christ as the bible never states it

You failed to address the scripture I posted and just repeated you assumption that the good please of his will means he arbitrarily selected some with no conditions to be in Christ

It is an assumption you offer without a biblical text in support and

Assumption is not solid grounds for labeling any argument weak

Provide evidence and deal with opposing argument for assumption does not advance your position

One becomes in Christ by God choosing them in Christ before the foundation of the World Eph 1 4

 

[TomFL]

Which God met Himself before the foundation of the World. He put people in Christ, by choosing them in Him before the foundation Eph 1 4

Sorry no

The verse does not state he chose men to be in Christ

It does state the chose us (the faithful in Christ according to the context) to be holy and blameless before him in love

 

[TomFL]

One becomes in Christ by God choosing them in Christ before the foundation of the World Eph 1 4

Sorry no. One becomes in Christ when he believes

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

before that

Eph. 2:12 —KJV
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”

 

[Sethproton]

Which God met Himself before the foundation of the World. He put people in Christ, by choosing them in Him before the foundation Eph 1 4

I do agree that God puts us in Christ. But those who read the verse to say He put us in Christ before we existed, those folks are not dealing with the reality that we each have a beginning that starts when we are conceived. We did not exist before the world was created.
Instead of seeing the verse as written that we were chosen in Christ, you are saying we were chosen TO BE in Christ. And yes we go round and round about this idea.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry no

The verse does not state he chose men to be in Christ

It does state the chose us (the faithful in Christ according to the context) to be holy and blameless before him in love

Sorry Yes. Believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, unconditionally may i add since they didn't physically exist.

 

[TomFL]

Sorry Yes. Believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, unconditionally may i add since they didn't physically exist.

You are inventing your oiwn facts

It does state the chose us (the faithful in Christ according to the context) to be holy and blameless before him in love

 

[brightfame52]

You are inventing your oiwn facts

It does state the chose us (the faithful in Christ according to the context) to be holy and blameless before him in love

Those Chosen in Christ before the foundation, were in Him before the foundation Eph 1 4

 

[TomFL]

Those Chosen in Christ before the foundation, were in Him before the foundation Eph 1 4

Eph. 2:12 —KJV
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”

 

[brightfame52]

Eph. 2:12 —KJV
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”

They were chosen in Christ and so were in Christ before the foundation Eph 1 4