The unpardonable sin and TULIP

Rev Do you believe the righteousness of God is credited to the account Christ died for before they become believers and while unregenerate dead in sins ?
We first and forevermore have the Righteousness of God when we're Justified through Faith in Christ Temporarily. Unconditional Election doesn't Justify us...
 
We first and forevermore have the Righteousness of God when we're Justified through Faith in Christ Temporarily. Unconditional Election doesn't Justify us...
So Rev you dont believe Christs death alone, apart from the doing of the sinner [faith, repentance], caused God to credit to the account righteousness, to them He suffered and died for ?
 
Who can commit the unpardonable sin; the elect, non-elect, or both? I presume everyone would argue that only the non-elect can commit it.

If this is the case, why does Christ speak of an unpardonable sin at all? Every sin that a non-elect person commits is, in truth, unpardonable. How could God forgive a sin which Christ has not atoned for?

In Calvinism, there really is no point whatsoever in this teaching of Jesus. Jesus is talking about a particular KIND of sin. In Calvinism, all the "elect's" sins are forgiven and all the non-elect's sins will not be forgiven. Committing a particular KIND of sin has no relevance in Calvinism since it only matters whether one is "elect" or not. If one is "elect" all sins will be forgiven. If one is not "elect" none of their sins are forgiven and committing a particular kind of sin has no relevance to it.
 
sg

Who can commit the unpardonable sin; the elect, non-elect, or both? I presume everyone would argue that only the non-elect can commit it.

If this is the case, why does Christ speak of an unpardonable sin at all? Every sin that a non-elect person commits is, in truth, unpardonable. How could God forgive a sin which Christ has not atoned for?

Another possibility is that Christ is speaking of a National Sin that only Israel as a Nation could committ at that time. That nation had been favored with much light, even the very Son of God living among them and doing so many miraculous works that verified His Messiahship, and how even these things He did by the Holy Spirit among them, and they in turned attributed to Him being a beelzebub devil. Some say thats the sin against the Spirit, and Israel as a Nation is unforgiven, though of course there will be some jews saved according to the election of Grace. Im not dogmatic about it.
 
So Rev you dont believe Christs death alone, apart from the doing of the sinner [faith, repentance], caused God to credit to the account righteousness, to them He suffered and died for ?
If Christ is not risen, we are most pitiful. Faith Alone is Justification...
 
army


Im not sure thats accurate to say Jesus propitiated all sin but not expiate all sin. Can you please go into a little more detail explaining that?
Penal substitutionary atonement. I thought I was clear on that already. Jesus took our place in His death. Our sin was placed on Him, and His righteousness was placed on us. He didn't pick and choose. It was all or nothing.
 
Years spent on CARM Forums has a lot to do with my writing skills; you ought to hear me speak in Redneck-ese though. Read my stuff again, but with the voice of Jeff Foxworthy in your head. Also, Southerners have a way of 'picturesque' speaking; like the imagery that Country Musical Lyrics envoke...

When a Born Again Saint sins, the Wrath of God for it falls on Christ and him Crucified; never on us. We always have the Righteousness of God credited to our account. I will write a Gospel Tract this weekend about Federal Headship and Penal Substitutionary Atonement...
I would say the sin falls on us to confess via 1 John 1:9, but we stand righteous because of Jesus and His death on the cross. I always saw it as our sin darkens our relationship with God, but, if we are saved, it does not end our relationship with God. The penalty for our sin was placed on Jesus, while His righteousness was placed upon us. Our sin, as believers, only affects our relationship with God. (He may stop talking to us until we deal with it, for instance.) I was a Baptist, so I am not saying He literally talks to us, but when we seek Him, He may be silent until we deal with our sin.
 
Penal substitutionary atonement. I thought I was clear on that already. Jesus took our place in His death. Our sin was placed on Him, and His righteousness was placed on us. He didn't pick and choose. It was all or nothing.
So how does this statement tell me the difference you say, between Jesus propitiating all sin, but not expiating all sin. Give details
 
So how does this statement tell me the difference you say, between Jesus propitiating all sin, but not expiating all sin. Give details
It doesn't even take expiation into account. All sin is forgiven by Christ. Why do you think we believe that a believer cannot commit the unpardonable sin? If they did, and they can't be pardoned, then they can't be saved, and were never saved in the first place. None of their sins were forgiven.
 
army
Our sin, as believers, only affects our relationship with God.

I see it differently, I dont think affects the believers relationship with God, thats through Christ alone, but it certainly affects the believers fellowship with God. David when contemplating his horrible sin or sins said Ps 51 12

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Joy is part of fellowship with God Rom 5 13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

1 Jn 1 4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
It doesn't even take expiation into account. All sin is forgiven by Christ. Why do you think we believe that a believer cannot commit the unpardonable sin? If they did, and they can't be pardoned, then they can't be saved, and were never saved in the first place. None of their sins were forgiven.
That doesn't explain it. Expiation is connected to propitiation they are practically synonyms.
 
Who can commit the unpardonable sin; the elect, non-elect, or both? I presume everyone would argue that only the non-elect can commit it.

If this is the case, why does Christ speak of an unpardonable sin at all? Every sin that a non-elect person commits is, in truth, unpardonable. How could God forgive a sin which Christ has not atoned for?
Every sin that a reprobate commits remains unpardoned; however, the unpardonable sin is not merely unpardoned, it is unpardonable, because of its nature. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in a special category of one - the only kind of sin for which Jesus did not die.
 
And how can that sin be committed today if Jesus is not walking this earth performing miracles.
Jesus is here, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to demons or the devil. Cessationists sometimes come very close to committing this sin nowadays (and some might step over the mark and actually commit it).
 
Who was in Jesus performing the miracles they witnessed firsthand.
Stubbornness...

It is not blasphemy against Jesus that is unforgiveable, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; Jesus said so himself.

Matt. 12:32 (LITV) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one .
 
No it’s seeing Jesus in the flesh perform miracles and saying they are being performed by beelzebub .
It is seeing Jesus performing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, and claiming that this Holy Spirit by whom Jesus is performing miracles, is Beezelbub. And yes, it is true that this sin, as recorded cannot be committed today. However, there are those who say that to die in one's sin, after seeing the testimony of the Holy Spirit, is akin to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because the denial of His work is akin to saying the Holy Spirit is evil, I will not accept. So, those who die in their sins, can never be forgiven, because they have, in essence, committed the unpardonable sin.
 
Thank you
Your welcome. It is a very difficult thing to understand, and support, but the new view makes some crazy rational sense. I do, however, believe in the end times, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is going to be real, in that worshiping the beast, and his image, and taking his mark, seals the soul forever in hell, and taking the mark in that condition, being a blasphemous opposite to the sealing of the Holy Spirit, makes this the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, so that Revelation states that they will all, every last one, find their place in hell. (In this case, the lake of fire)
 
Your welcome. It is a very difficult thing to understand, and support, but the new view makes some crazy rational sense. I do, however, believe in the end times, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is going to be real, in that worshiping the beast, and his image, and taking his mark, seals the soul forever in hell, and taking the mark in that condition, being a blasphemous opposite to the sealing of the Holy Spirit, makes this the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, so that Revelation states that they will all, every last one, find their place in hell. (In this case, the lake of fire)
Blasphemy means "injurious speech". Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is injurious speech against the Holy Spirit, especially attributing his work to demons or the devil. This could be committed nowadays, e.g. by attributing gifts of the Holy Spirit to the devil.
 
Blasphemy means "injurious speech". Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is injurious speech against the Holy Spirit, especially attributing his work to demons or the devil. This could be committed nowadays, e.g. by attributing gifts of the Holy Spirit to the devil.
Except that Jesus explained exactly what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was at that time, and what you said isn't it. You do realize that many Christians have stumbled at the point of believing that the idle thought that would fit the definition that came through their mind when they read this passage for the first time ended all hope of salvation? Then they sought out guidance, and someone mercifully took the time to explain to them what the passage actually meant. Imagine all the damage the devil could bring if your simple understanding of the passage was true. How many believers would be shut out of heaven because of you misunderstanding the passage. Thank goodness you aren't the final authority. Jesus was not exercising gifts of the Holy Spirit when the religious leaders claimed that the power of the Holy Spirit Himself (not gifts) was actually the power of Beezelbub. As such, no, it is not possible to commit this sin today. None of us can call ourselves Jesus, and none of us can claim to perform miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit as Jesus did. Look at the disciples. They couldn't cast out a demon. What did Jesus tell them? That this demon could only possibly come out through much prayer and fasting to God. Jesus didn't pray at all, He just cast out the demon. Huge difference. There was a group of translators who went around recording people speaking in tongues in services. Now the reason Paul calls it tongues is because they are known languages (plural). Babbling, no matter what one is babbling is what Paul is talking about when he says tongue int eh singular, of which he has nothing good to say. The results of their experiment is that they found that way less then 10% (a lot less) were actual languages, and in the cases where they were languages, in the vast majority of cases, they were cursing God in a foreign language.
 
Except that Jesus explained exactly what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was at that time, and what you said isn't it. You do realize that many Christians have stumbled at the point of believing that the idle thought that would fit the definition that came through their mind when they read this passage for the first time ended all hope of salvation? Then they sought out guidance, and someone mercifully took the time to explain to them what the passage actually meant. Imagine all the damage the devil could bring if your simple understanding of the passage was true. How many believers would be shut out of heaven because of you misunderstanding the passage. Thank goodness you aren't the final authority. Jesus was not exercising gifts of the Holy Spirit when the religious leaders claimed that the power of the Holy Spirit Himself (not gifts) was actually the power of Beezelbub. As such, no, it is not possible to commit this sin today. None of us can call ourselves Jesus, and none of us can claim to perform miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit as Jesus did. Look at the disciples. They couldn't cast out a demon. What did Jesus tell them? That this demon could only possibly come out through much prayer and fasting to God. Jesus didn't pray at all, He just cast out the demon. Huge difference. There was a group of translators who went around recording people speaking in tongues in services. Now the reason Paul calls it tongues is because they are known languages (plural). Babbling, no matter what one is babbling is what Paul is talking about when he says tongue int eh singular, of which he has nothing good to say. The results of their experiment is that they found that way less then 10% (a lot less) were actual languages, and in the cases where they were languages, in the vast majority of cases, they were cursing God in a foreign language.
Jesus said that attributing works of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That is what I posted.

An idle thought, a mistake, a misunderstanding, parroting someone else's opinion, etc. are not what is meant by blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What is meant is seeing what is clearly of the Holy Spirit and, with a wicked, hard-hearted unbelief, attributing it to the devil.
 
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