James 2:24

[Theo1689]

You never replied to the rich man and Christ answer to "what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life"

Well, first of all, I don't believe I have any obligation to respond to every trollish post that is posted here.

Secondly, when posts like that are themselves EVASIONS of my own post, I'm not going to enable such evasive behaviour. If someone wants me to address his issues, he has to first stop RUNNING AWAY from mine.

And finally, the poster in question doesn't offer honest, open-ended questions, they are just worthless rhetorical questions rigged by being worded in a way that tries to force an answer inside a Mormon paradigm. This indicates that the poster isn't interested in learning in the first place.

Did God say to him, "faith alone" or did he not say sacrifice all you have and follow me... so according to scripture, faith alone is not mentioned but as I discussed before about Abraham and his willingness to sacrifice all he had, even his very son...

And Jesus likewise didn't teach any five-year-olds calculus.
There is a PROCESS you have to go through.

You can only get to "faith alone" after going through Rom. 3:19-20 (which you guys keep RUNNING AWAY from), and learning that NO amount of works can get you there.

And sadly, that is the lesson that Mormons are still failing to learn.

 

[Bonnie]

Faith alone without complete sacrifice on our part has not affect on Eternal Life... Abraham is a great example of this, sacrifice all he had and then follow God...so Bonnie are you willing to sacrifice all you have, or are you depending on your faith alone for salvation?

HOW was Abe willing to sacrifice all that he had? Did he do so IN faith in God, or OUTSIDE of faith in God? Hebrews 11 gives us the answer:

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God....By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your [n]descendants shall be called.” 19 [o]He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back [p]as a type.

BY WHAT did Abraham obey God? BY WHAT, Richard? And remember Genesis 15:

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Paul even deals with this in Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness...

Our faith is what makes us righteous before our Holy God. THEN and ONLY then are we able to bear fruit, obey, sacrifice, etc. for the indwelling HS enables us to do all of these things. As Paul makes plain in Eph. 2:9-10.

Mark 10

26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

BY WHAT were they able to leave all and follow Jesus?

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

BY WHAT were they able to leave all and follow Jesus Christ? What does Hebrews 11 say?

 

[preacher4truth]

Are you saying that Scripture doesn't mean what it says?

Nope.

I'm saying it doesn't mean what some say it says.

 

[dberrie2020]

And Jesus likewise didn't teach any five-year-olds calculus.
There is a PROCESS you have to go through.

You can only get to "faith alone" after going through Rom. 3:19-20 (which you guys keep RUNNING AWAY from), and learning that NO amount of works can get you there.

And sadly, that is the lesson that Mormons are still failing to learn.

The LDS might just choose a different source to learn from, other than one's speculation:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So--how does that differ from other scriptures?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Theo1689]

The LDS might just choose a different source to learn from, other than one's speculation:

Yes.... LDS choose "different" from God and the Bible.
We already know that.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So--how does that differ from other scriptures?

You're not understanding what it means, becuause you're ripping it out of context.
Go back and read the first four posts in this thread.

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That couldn't be more irrelevant to what we're discussing.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from James 2.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from Rom. 3:19-20.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from Eph. 2:8-9.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from 2 Tim. 1:9.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from Tit. 3:5.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from Rom. 4:1-6.
Please stop RUNNING AWAY from Rom. 11:5-6.

 

[dberrie2020]

Nope.

I'm saying it doesn't mean what some say it says.

No doubt. But the Biblical writers aren't just "some" :

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[dberrie2020]

HOW was Abe willing to sacrifice all that he had? Did he do so IN faith in God, or OUT of faith in God? Hebrews 11 gives us the answer:

BY WHAT did Abraham obey God? BY WHAT, Richard? And remember Genesis 15:

In faith in God.

And here is Abraham's faith:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

IOW--Abraham received of God's grace--and his seed also--because of Abraham's obedience to Christ(faith in God).

The same with all mankind:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Theo1689]

No doubt. But the Biblical writers aren't just "some" :

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

No, but you are Richard are "some".
And you don't understand the Scriptures.

You keep wanting to REMOVE it from its CONTEXT so you can project your OWN preferred meaning.

Not to mention compeltely IGNORING:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[dberrie2020]

Yes.... LDS choose "different" from God and the Bible.

What do you consider as "different from God and the Bible"--about the posted scriptures?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Theo1689]

What do you consider as "different from God and the Bible"--about the posted scriptures?

Your question is irrelevant and non-sensical.
Mormons don't obey God or the Bible.

Any Bible Scriptures you choose to quote don't change that FACT.

Otherwise, you wouldn't keep RUNNING AWAY from:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[dberrie2020]

No, but you are Richard are "some".
And you don't understand the Scriptures.

You keep wanting to REMOVE it from its CONTEXT so you can project your OWN preferred meaning.

That's usually the retort of those whose theology is violated by the Biblical scriptures:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Fits the LDS theology very well.

 

[dberrie2020]

Your question is irrelevant and non-sensical.
Mormons don't obey God or the Bible.

If the posted scriptures are true--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of who you believe obeys the the Bible or God:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Theo1689]

That's usually the retort of those whose theology is violated by the Biblical scriptures:

Well, YOU would know about "theology violated by the Biblical scriptures".
After all, you're the expert at RUNNING AWAY from them:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.



These passages utterly DESTROY Mormon theology.
That's why you have to RUN AWAY from them.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I've exegeted this passage in GREAT detail.
And you RUN AWAY from the exegesis.

Just like you keep RUNNING AWAY from eph. 2:8-9, 2Tim 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6...

 

[Theo1689]

If the posted scriptures are true--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of who you believe obeys the the Bible or God:

If the posted Scriptures are true-- then Mormon theology is false--regardless of who you believe obeys the Bible or God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


Mormon theology is absolutely .... DESTROYED.

 

[dberrie2020]

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.

When Paul talked about "faith"--it was not independent of our deeds:

2 Corinthians 5:10--King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So--when you reference the term "faith"--it that a reference to a faith with obedience to Christ--or without that obedience to Christ?

 

[Theo1689]

When Paul talked about "faith"--it was not independent of our deeds:

It's funny that when you quoted Eph. 2:8, you DELETED the part where it showed it is COMPLETELY "independent of our deeds":


Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,


Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[dberrie2020]

If the posted Scriptures are true-- then Mormon theology is false--regardless of who you believe obeys the Bible or God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


Mormon theology is absolutely .... DESTROYED.

How so? The LDS do not believe salvation is the result of works. They believe it is by God's grace--which grace God extends to them who obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


So--what is there about repentance and water baptism you don't consider obedience to Christ--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider as God's grace?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Theo1689]

How so? The LDS do not believe salvation is the result of works. They believe it is by God's grace--which grace God extends to them who obey Him:

Unless you can demonstrate how you can "obey him" without doing "works", you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This thread is for discussing James 2, specifically James 2:26, especially since YOU are the one who is obsessed with it and keeps bringing it up.

YOU brought up James 2:21, but when I try to discuss it, suddenly you RUN AWAY from it, and try to discuss ANOTHER passage.

This thread is for discussing James 2.
If you don't want to discuss James 2, but want to RUN AWAY to some other passage, then please start your own thread, and stop polluting mine.


This is simply PROOF that Mormonism is false, because they keep running away from EVERY verse in the Bible, even the verses THEY bring up themselves, such as James 2:26.

 

[dberrie2020]

It's funny that when you quoted Eph. 2:8, you DELETED the part where it showed it is COMPLETELY "independent of our deeds":
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It does not state eternal life is independent of obedience to Christ--it states it isn't a result of our obedience to Christ. It is a result of God's grace--which goes to them which obey God:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Theo1689]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version

<sigh>
This thread is for discussing James 2, since YOU keep obsessing over that verse.

If you're not interested in discussing James 2, PLEASE LEAVE, and stop polluting my thread.

John 5:28-29---King James Version

<sigh>
This thread is for discussing James 2, since YOU keep obsessing over that verse.

If you're not interested in discussing James 2, PLEASE LEAVE, and stop polluting my thread.