the original Messianic Judaism?

The specifics of evolutionary theory, how much natural selection plays a role verses random mutation, punctuated equilibrium, etc., continue to be discussed, and evolutionary theory will of course continue to be tweaked as more information is gathered. But the basic idea that life evolves? This is beyond question. It is a case where the experts agree, thus it is logical to appeal to authority.
sure, even ID scientists acknowledge that Darwin had plenty of valid insights and is one of the most important scientists of all time
it's ok to question the consensus
but it is also definitely hard to square Biblical historical claims with the current majority views



"Eber was such a great prophet, that he called his son Peleg, meaning earthquake" - Seder Olam
"for in his days the Earth was divided" Genesis 10 (this seems to be the language division, not the continents)

"Methuselah died just before Noah's flood" - Seder Olam
Methuselah means "his death shall send" or "when he dies it will come" or something like that
 
Which means the whole story in Genesis and part of Exodus must be allegory.

Given that it was likely written around 150 B.C
Moses would have had all the previous literary works that had been past down (to his brother, Aaron)
as a basis for his History

Do you see where I am coming from now?
why would they be only allegory, if God is a God of knowledge
and wants us to know the correct history of the Ages
I'm cool with the multiple creation events view.

-

James was not a believer in his brother until after the resurrection.
I view James as typical of a religious Jew who becomes a believer
and then has to reconcile his new reality in Jesus with the religious Jewish
life he has been living up to then.
Mosaic law observance would be the last thing to go, if it ever does.

from a book I have about Church Fathers -
"James was the half brother of the Lord. He was considered so holy
that the Jews (the leadership, as the term sometimes refers to in the NT) allowed him to pray
daily in the Temple. He was nicknamed "camel knees" because of the callouses on them from long
prayers on the stone floor. He was not open about his faith in Jesus. After being the pastor of the
Jerusalem church or fourteen years, he was asked by unbelieving Jews to preach against Christ
at a festival. There, he declared Jesus to be the true Messiah. They rushed him and he was taken to
and thrown off the pillar of the Temple. They then took a stone and bashed his head in, and so he died a martyr."

Hippolytus has a list of 70 followers of Jesus
James is listed first, as the leader in Jerusalem
but Olympus and Rhodian are listed together
so there are 71 on the list, because James was not
originally a part of "the 70"
 
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sure, even ID scientists acknowledge that Darwin had plenty of valid insights and is one of the most important scientists of all time
it's ok to question the consensus
A scientist IS an expert, and entitled to their own opinion. It is not rational for the non-expert to challenge the consensus.
 
Enoch describes the canon of literature that would come later, to
which his work is specifically said not to be added (*)

"But when they write down truthfully all my words...

"...for I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the wise
to become a cause of joy and rightness and much wisdom. These books will be
given to them, and they will believe and rejoice in them, and all the righteous
who have learned the paths of uprightness from them will be rewarded.

In those days, says the Lord, the children of Earth will be summoned and a testimony
given about the wisdom of them (the books of the Bible) for they are the guides (*), and
a reward for the whole Earth ..." - book of Enoch ch. 104

"Do not be godless in your hearts, nor lie, nor alter the words
of uprightness, (don't change the Bible)
...nor charge the Great Holy One with lying..." - book of Enoch ch.104

from Gk. blasphemia "a speaking ill, impious speech, slander," from blasphemein "to speak evil of."

why dance with the Torah if it isn't true?
 
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"For these are the word of the blessing of Enoch, to
bless the elect and righteous, who will be living in the
day of tribulation
, when all the wicked and godless will be <---
destroyed. God opened the eyes of the righteous Enoch
so that angels could show him (Enoch walked with "elohim" Gen. 5)
in a vision of the Holy One of the heavens.
For then I understood that the vision I saw was not for my generation,
but for a far distant one." - book of Enoch ch. 1 1-2

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them..." Jude 1:14

the Bible is the rule of faith for Believers
but the Holy Spirit had Jude namecheck Enoch for a reason
Jewish prayers will be answered, and the wicked and godless will be destroyed o_O
 
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If we can't accept the first 11 chapters of Genesis as actual History
then why should we bother with -

"Now the Lord had said to Abram..."
and everything that follows?
 
If we can't accept the first 11 chapters of Genesis as actual History
then why should we bother with -

"Now the Lord had said to Abram..."
and everything that follows?
Basically, we have what is called the embarassment factor. The fact that the Tanakh records Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with all their flaws is evidence that these people actually existed, because if stories were only made up, they would be white washed.
 
in the Kingdom age

"My servant David shall be their prince forever" (over Israel) Ezekiel 37

"But the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary
...they shall come near Me to minister to Me" Ezekiel ch. 44

"In controversy they shall stand as judges, and judge it according to My judgments" verse 24

David and the Zadoks will rule and judge Israel and facilitate all commanded Religious ritual, festivals, Sabbaths, and legal proceedings
in service of a Higher authority (Messiah)

the Essenes followed the "Zadok Way"
the Chruch has a promise that we will rule and reign with Messiah
 
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"and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" Ephesians 2

Paul knew that the inheritance he (and all the Church) already now have and will have in Jesus ("but now...in Christ")
is far greater than anything that was ever promised under the Mosaic covenant/Law
he considered his life as a Pharisee worthless in comparison
James may have struggled with this, but he is still going to get all those gracious mercies and gifts and reward in Christ Jesus as well
 
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Basically, we have what is called the embarassment factor. The fact that the Tanakh records Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with all their flaws is evidence that these people actually existed, because if stories were only made up, they would be white washed.
I am 100% sure Genesis and most of Exodus are allegory. Between the essenes, Philo, and Paul, I am up to 90% sure of what it means. Philo lays out a pretty good sketch of its meaning in his day. Paul adds to philo and the essenes. It actually makes sense once you get the general idea.

For Philo and Paul the celestial messiah is the divine reason or mind enveloped by substance. That divine reason or mind plants virtues in our souls to birth children of God. Both divine reason and substance come from (the most high god), aka, El, the true God. Reason and substance (sensible cosmos) corollate with Ruach Elohim and YHWH Elohim, respectively, who are the elder and lesser sons of god. Which is why YHWH forms the outer man, ie, body, whereas, reason or spirit makes the soul virtuous. Philo goes into a lot of detail. I don’t think Philo gets much attention because he allegorizes scripture, whereas, Jewish and Chrietian orthodoxy prefer the myths and superstitions instead. Talking snakes, donkeys, and bushes makes greater theater too.

One difference between Paul and Philo is that Philo does not indicate where imperfect matter or flesh came from whereas Paul and Essenes associate it with an inferior angel. Apparently, YHWH as younger son and “god of this world” is inferior to divine reason as the elder son and god of the future kingdom. IOW substance needs the influence of reason to accomplish El’s plan for us.

The Gospel stories are allegory too. They personify divine reason (namely, Yeshua or Joshua) in Paul in order to canonize his letters. Apparently, the authors considered Paul a true apostle of the true God, aka, El. Paul was considered a ray of light, a light-spark, from the Father-sun.

It makes a lot of sense.
 
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I am 100% sure Genesis and most of Exodus are allegory. Between the essenes, Philo, and Paul, I am up to 90% sure of what it means. Philo lays out a pretty good sketch of its meaning in his day. Paul adds to philo and the essenes. It actually makes sense once you get the general idea.

For Philo and Paul the celestial messiah is the divine reason or mind enveloped by substance. That divine reason or mind plants virtues in our souls to birth children of God. Both divine reason and substance come from (the most high god), aka, El, the true God. Reason and substance (sensible cosmos) corollate with Ruach Elohim and YHWH Elohim, respectively, who are the elder and lesser sons of god. Which is why YHWH forms the outer man, ie, body, whereas, reason or spirit makes the soul virtuous. Philo goes into a lot of detail. I don’t think Philo gets much attention because he allegorizes scripture, whereas, Jewish and Chrietian orthodoxy prefer the myths and superstitions instead. Talking snakes, donkeys, and bushes makes greater theater too.

One difference between Paul and Philo is that Philo does not indicate where imperfect matter or flesh came from whereas Paul and Essenes associate it with an inferior angel. Apparently, YHWH as younger son and “god of this world” is inferior to divine reason as the elder son and god of the future kingdom. IOW substance needs the influence of reason to accomplish El’s plan for us.

The Gospel stories are allegory too. They personify divine reason (namely, Yeshua or Joshua) in Paul in order to canonize his letters. Apparently, the authors considered Paul a true apostle of the true God, aka, El. Paul was considered a ray of light, a light-spark, from the Father-sun.

It makes a lot of sense.
Philo may be a famous Jew, but he wrote from a Greek POV, not a Jewish POV.
 
Philo may be a famous Jew, but he wrote from a Greek POV, not a Jewish POV.
Let’s be honest. Philo and the Essenes were from nation Israel whose allegorizing the Pharisees rejected. You taking the position of the Pharisees don’t consider them true Jews just as they consider the Pharisees belonging to the Gentiles (not members of spiritual Israel). It is the adage found so true, one mans heretic is another mans prophet.

Per Wise regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls,
“Early Christianity, we learn, was not a hybrid of Judaism and Hellenism—it was rooted in the native soil of Palestine. “

I would add that the methods of interpreting both Jewish and Greek/Egyptian myths was the same resulting in a common meaning, a universal religion, and a universal faith in the living and true God who was symbolized by the phenomena in nature we call sun. His rays being the light that shines in the hearts of humans.
 
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"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world?
Tell me, if you have understanding. ...Surely you know!...

Who laid it's cornerstone when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy" - book of Job
(the sons of God are older than the Earth)

"God who at various times and in various ways spoke in times past
to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us
by his Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, (and) through
whom He made the worlds." - Hebrews 1

"By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word
of God (the Son of God) and that what is seen was not made out
of things that are visible." - Hebrews 11

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
- John 1

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all Creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in the heavens and that
are on the Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions,
or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him, and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." - Paul, Colossians 1
 
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Let’s be honest. Philo and the Essenes were from nation Israel whose allegorizing the Pharisees rejected.
Which doesn't make it wrong to reject Hellenistic ideas. Paul as such, was rejected as an apostate too.

You taking the position of the Pharisees don’t consider them true Jews just as they consider the Pharisees belonging to the Gentiles (not members of spiritual Israel).
I don't see where Essenes took the Pharisees as being gentiles.

It is the adage found so true, one mans heretic is another mans prophet.
Yes, this is true.

Per Wise regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls,
“Early Christianity, we learn, was not a hybrid of Judaism and Hellenism—it was rooted in the native soil of Palestine. “
Gentile Christianity today in no way matches what the early Jewish believers followed - The Nazarenes. Even they maintained adherence to the law, in a human Jesus, that he grew in perfection.

Even Gentile Christianity back then was in no way like the original founded within Judaism. The messianic idea is not new to Christianity nor subscribes to a divine Messiah.

I would add that the methods of interpreting both Jewish and Greek/Egyptian myths was the same resulting in a common meaning, a universal religion, and a universal faith in the living and true God who was symbolized by the phenomena in nature we call sun. His rays being the light that shines in the hearts of humans.
Yeah, pagan gnosticsm leads to a lot of ideas. Even your mention of two different gods controlling different aspects is part of the deception.
 
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You (Messiah)
with the oil of gladness more than Your companions." <--- (the sons of God?)
- Psalm 45

“How then does David in the Spirit call Him (Messiah)
‘Lord,’ saying:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?
If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”
- Matthew 22, Luke 20
 
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there is the Son of God (who also is God)
there are the sons of God (older than this world)
there is Adam (a direct creation, a human/earthly son of God) Luke 3

the fallen descendants of Adam (sons of Man) must be reborn
and made into sons of God

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were (re)born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1

"you must be born again" John 3
"are you THE teacher of Israel, and you do not know this?"

humanity has an option of redemption, something fallen sons of God apparently do not have
to save us, God became a part of the Human family (a son of Man) Matt 8, 9, 11, 16, 24 Luke 18, 22 John 1, 5, 6, 12, 13 Acts 7 Rev. 1 etc.

"just as the Son of Man (at His first appearance) did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life (as) a ransom for many"
 
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Which doesn't make it wrong to reject Hellenistic ideas. Paul as such, was rejected as an apostate too.

I don't see where Essenes took the Pharisees as being gentiles.
Essenes grouped Pharisees WITH THE Gentiles. Moreover, Pharisees invited Romans in to aid their side in the civil war. So not only theological but political opposition existed between pharisees and essenes.

Yes, this is true.


Gentile Christianity today in no way matches what the early Jewish believers followed - The Nazarenes. Even they maintained adherence to the law, in a human Jesus, that he grew in perfection
Right, modern christianity evolved from Jewish-christianity, not necessarily for the better.
It is why I read the Dead Sea Scrolls so much because they arguably are the founders of Christianity in its original form. But they allegorized scripture like Philo and Paul and gnostic Christians.

I think a case could be made that Phariseeism evolved into modern Christianity because they both interpret scriptures literally, whereas, Essenes evolved into gnostic christianity because they both allegorized scripture. They also held common tenets, eg, dualism, good versus evil, etc.

It is noteworthy that Pharisees persecuted the Essenes just as Christian orthodoxy persecuted gnostic christianity. The literalizers versus the allegorizers in both cases.

Even Gentile Christianity back then was in no way like the original founded within Judaism.
The messianic idea is not new to Christianity nor subscribes to a divine Messiah.


Yeah, pagan gnosticsm leads to a lot of ideas. Even your mention of two different gods controlling different aspects is part of the deception.
News flash! Elohim means gods. Psalm 82:6 calls humans gods. So be careful pointing a finger at others when Hebrew scriptures say a lot of things that many ignore.

Philo clearly assigns true God status to El, the Most High God. And the second and third gods (Elohim, Ruach and YHWH) are metaphorically described as sons of El. But actually are the reason and substance from El, respectively, making up all things, aka, creation. So different principles and potencies from El may be personified for instruction but all in all, El is One.

I am not going to argue with you since I know you have one way of seeing things. But there are different ways to describe the same thing depending on which perspective one uses. It rounds out the overall picture to see it from different angles. The allegorizers tended to do that. So for example, Philo refers to the divine reason of El by many titles, depending on the different perspective he is describing. To list a few:
Divine Logos
First born son of god
Mind
Aeon
Spiritual sun
City of god
Viceroy of great king
Idea of ideas
Image of true God, aka, El
Eldest son
Pleroma (English: fullness)
Driver of Ezekiel's “chariot”
Name of god
Dominion
Seeing Israel
Mother city
Father and husband to virtuous souls
Active principle of El
Ideal cosmos
Eldest angel
Angel-chief
 
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News flash! Elohim means gods. Psalm 82:6 calls humans gods. So be careful pointing a finger at others when Hebrew scriptures say a lot of things that many ignore.
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Elohim has more than one meaning depending on context. It can mean gods (plural), as in the gods of pagans. It can mean the One God (singular). It can mean angels. It can mean human justices. Psalm 82:6 refers to judges who are men, since it indicates that they will die like all men die.
 
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