American Gothic
Well-known member
Guess I'll be back to talking to Myself for a while. 
the original Messianic Judaism?
- Thread starter American Gothic
- Start date
Rachel Redux
Well-known member
Exactly!!
Why do some people seem to believe that YHVH gave Laws, instruction and promises to a particular people and tell them they were observe them forever (Exodus 12:24) if it isn't true?
So do they think he came down and perpetrated the biggest joke in history on the people of this planet?
docphin5
Well-known member
Paul did not think so.
The Teacher of Righteousness did not think so.
Both of these individuals could perceive its fulfillment IN THEIR TIMES or DAYS to the “sons of light” or “true-seeing Israel”. Both Paul and the TOR were members of nation Israel.
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American Gothic
Well-known member
we really can't understand Bible and believe in the God of the Bible without understanding this
otherwise, we do violence the text itself
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American Gothic
Well-known member
as Rebels by nature, we deserve Nothing from God thru performance or merit or birthright
what we get He graciously gives to us of His own good pleasure and for His glory
certain promises to Abraham and Israel and Humanity are unconditional
and God is a promise keeper
what we get He graciously gives to us of His own good pleasure and for His glory
certain promises to Abraham and Israel and Humanity are unconditional
and God is a promise keeper
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
The biggest issue is your seemingly agreement of the abrogation of God's laws (they weren't Moses' law), whether it involves the ritual, etc., because it is more spiritual than following what God has said Himself. That's the thinking of cults who raise their ideas above God. False knowledge, gnosis, doesn't help you any.
BTW, I'm still waiting to see what the gods fulfilled for the other nations. Did you have a response?
Post in thread 'the original Messianic Judaism?' https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-original-messianic-judaism.6973/post-546388
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
And nothing was fulfilled in their days. So much for the light
American Gothic
Well-known member
"Now when Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister, and said to Jacob, “Give me children, or else I die!”
And Jacob’s anger was aroused against Rachel, and he said, “Am I in the place of God, who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?”
So she said, “Here is my maid Bilhah; go in to her, and she will bear a child on my knees, that I also may [a]have children by her.” Then she gave him Bilhah her maid as wife, and Jacob went in to her. And Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. Then Rachel said, “God has judged my case; and He has also heard my voice and given me a son.” Therefore she called his name Dan. And Rachel’s maid Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. Then Rachel said, “With great wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and indeed I have prevailed.” So she called his name Naphtali.
When Leah saw that she had stopped bearing, she took Zilpah her maid and gave her to Jacob as wife. And Leah’s maid Zilpah bore Jacob a son. Then Leah said, “A troop comes!”(lol) So she called his name Gad. And Leah’s maid Zilpah bore Jacob a second son. Then Leah said, “I am happy, for the daughters will call me blessed.” So she called his name Asher.
Now Reuben went in the days of wheat harvest and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them to his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, “Please give me some of your son’s mandrakes.”
But she said to her, “Is it a small matter that you have taken away my husband? Would you take away my son’s mandrakes also?”
And Rachel said, “Therefore he will lie with you tonight for your son’s mandrakes.”
When Jacob came out of the field in the evening, Leah went out to meet him and said, “You must come in to me, for I have surely hired you with my son’s mandrakes.” And he lay with her that night.
And God listened to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son. Leah said, “God has given me my wages, because I have given my maid to my husband.” So she called his name Issachar. Then Leah conceived again and bore Jacob a sixth son. And Leah said, “God has endowed me with a good endowment; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons.” So she called his name Zebulun.
Afterward she bore a daughter, and called her name Dinah.
Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb. And she conceived and bore a son, and said, “God has taken away my reproach.” So she called his name Joseph, and said, “The Lord shall add to me another son.” - Genesis 30
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"I was the fifth son born to Jacob, even the hire of the mandrakes. For Reuben brought in mandrakes from the field,
and Rachel met him and took them. Reuben wept, and at his voice Leah, my mother, came out.
Rachel said, 'I will not give them to you. They will be for my children.'
There were two...and Leah said, 'Isn't it enough you have taken the husband of my virginity? Will you also take these?'
Rachel said, 'I will give you Jacob for tonight, and you give me your son's mandrakes.'
Leah said to her, 'Don't boast or be prideful, for Jacob is mine and I am the wife of his youth!'
But Rachel said, 'How so? He was espoused to me first. He served our father fourteen years for me!
It is not my fault our father was a deceiver...if not for deception, you would have never seen the face of Jacob!'
Rachel said, 'Take one mandrake, and for the other you will hire him (lol!) from me for the night.'
And she conceived and bear me, Issachar....
Then an angel of the Lord appeared to Jacob saying,
'Rachel will bear two children, for though she refused the company of her husband, she has chosen continency.' (passion restraint)
For she went further, and on the morrow too gave up Jacob, that she might receive the other mandrake also.
For though she desired them, Rachel ate them not, but brought them to the priest of Most High God
(likely Isaac - Shem and Abraham had already died)
and offered them up to the house of the Lord.
If my mother (Leah) had not given up the two mandrakes, she would have borne eight sons."
- testament of Issachar
And Jacob’s anger was aroused against Rachel, and he said, “Am I in the place of God, who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?”
So she said, “Here is my maid Bilhah; go in to her, and she will bear a child on my knees, that I also may [a]have children by her.” Then she gave him Bilhah her maid as wife, and Jacob went in to her. And Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. Then Rachel said, “God has judged my case; and He has also heard my voice and given me a son.” Therefore she called his name Dan. And Rachel’s maid Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. Then Rachel said, “With great wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and indeed I have prevailed.” So she called his name Naphtali.
When Leah saw that she had stopped bearing, she took Zilpah her maid and gave her to Jacob as wife. And Leah’s maid Zilpah bore Jacob a son. Then Leah said, “A troop comes!”(lol) So she called his name Gad. And Leah’s maid Zilpah bore Jacob a second son. Then Leah said, “I am happy, for the daughters will call me blessed.” So she called his name Asher.
Now Reuben went in the days of wheat harvest and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them to his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, “Please give me some of your son’s mandrakes.”
But she said to her, “Is it a small matter that you have taken away my husband? Would you take away my son’s mandrakes also?”
And Rachel said, “Therefore he will lie with you tonight for your son’s mandrakes.”
When Jacob came out of the field in the evening, Leah went out to meet him and said, “You must come in to me, for I have surely hired you with my son’s mandrakes.” And he lay with her that night.
And God listened to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son. Leah said, “God has given me my wages, because I have given my maid to my husband.” So she called his name Issachar. Then Leah conceived again and bore Jacob a sixth son. And Leah said, “God has endowed me with a good endowment; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons.” So she called his name Zebulun.
Afterward she bore a daughter, and called her name Dinah.
Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb. And she conceived and bore a son, and said, “God has taken away my reproach.” So she called his name Joseph, and said, “The Lord shall add to me another son.” - Genesis 30
-
"I was the fifth son born to Jacob, even the hire of the mandrakes. For Reuben brought in mandrakes from the field,
and Rachel met him and took them. Reuben wept, and at his voice Leah, my mother, came out.
Rachel said, 'I will not give them to you. They will be for my children.'
There were two...and Leah said, 'Isn't it enough you have taken the husband of my virginity? Will you also take these?'
Rachel said, 'I will give you Jacob for tonight, and you give me your son's mandrakes.'
Leah said to her, 'Don't boast or be prideful, for Jacob is mine and I am the wife of his youth!'
But Rachel said, 'How so? He was espoused to me first. He served our father fourteen years for me!
It is not my fault our father was a deceiver...if not for deception, you would have never seen the face of Jacob!'
Rachel said, 'Take one mandrake, and for the other you will hire him (lol!) from me for the night.'
And she conceived and bear me, Issachar....
Then an angel of the Lord appeared to Jacob saying,
'Rachel will bear two children, for though she refused the company of her husband, she has chosen continency.' (passion restraint)
For she went further, and on the morrow too gave up Jacob, that she might receive the other mandrake also.
For though she desired them, Rachel ate them not, but brought them to the priest of Most High God
(likely Isaac - Shem and Abraham had already died)
and offered them up to the house of the Lord.
If my mother (Leah) had not given up the two mandrakes, she would have borne eight sons."
- testament of Issachar
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Rachel Redux
Well-known member
Who are you calling the teacher of righteousness?
docphin5
Well-known member
A leader in the Dead Sea Scrolls around 100 B.C. who predicted the coming Messiahs. Directed baptism of the coming Messiahs. Directed the Lord’s Supper led by the coming Messiahs (The oldest mention of the bread and wine used in the Lord’s Supper of any existing documents). Taught many things that ended up in the New Testament. Predicted nation Israel would be ruled by foreign powers until the Christ’s return. This is the guy preparing ”The Way” in the desert. Arguably, the real person who “John the Baptist” Is based on. A prophet like Moses (Deut 18:15).
Just that guy. You would not be interested in him because he allegorized scripture like Paul. In fact, Paul repeated some of his analogies written in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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docphin5
Well-known member
For one, Egypt ruled itself for thousands of years and was a mighty power militarily and economically for most of that time. I believe Memphis is on record for the longest self-rule of any city-state on the planet. Whereas, the promised land allegedly given to Abraham has not turned out as expected, has it?
If you want to compare myths to myths then Egypt has some whoppers too. But it is vain to compare such things. The myths were always intended to be understood esoterically, something you wouldn’t have a clue about.
It is not worth arguing about. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. best of luck.
docphin5
Well-known member
The fulfillment in their days was the “light to the Gentiles”. What ultimately they revealed is that God is not only the God of the Jews but God of the Gentiles also. And that the Jewish particularism based on outward purity is merely symbolic and even idolatrous or sensual in absence of the inner spiritual quality. Simply, there is no respect of persons with God; but in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34)And nothing was fulfilled in their days. So much for the light
”Listen to me, O coastlands,
and give attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.
He made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me a polished arrow;
in his quiver he hid me away.
And he said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my right is with the LORD,
and my recompense with my God.”
And now the LORD says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD,
and my God has become my strength—
he says:
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation (Yesuati or Jesus) may reach to the end of the earth.” (Isaiah 49)
Finished, fulfilled, completed as prophesied, as foretold!
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American Gothic
Well-known member
the reason Israel is back in the Land is because God promised them
He would bring them back whenever they were dispersed
a unique promise to Them not made to other peoples
per the Land covenant
Israel currently is surrounded by enemies all around but
Ezekiel tells us what will happen when Israel is attacked by
an outer ring of specifically named nations
God will deliberately and perceptively intervene on their behalf
in only allegorizing the Scriptures, there is nothing definitive to Trust or know
He would bring them back whenever they were dispersed
a unique promise to Them not made to other peoples
per the Land covenant
Israel currently is surrounded by enemies all around but
Ezekiel tells us what will happen when Israel is attacked by
an outer ring of specifically named nations
God will deliberately and perceptively intervene on their behalf
in only allegorizing the Scriptures, there is nothing definitive to Trust or know
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American Gothic
Well-known member
"He will assign them to the Sons of Heaven and to the inheritance of Melchizedek; for He will cast their lot amid the portions of Melchizedek, who will return them there and will proclaim to them liberty, forgiving them [the wrong-doings] of all their iniquities. And this thing will occur in the first week of the Jubilee that follows the nine Jubilees. And the day of atonement is the end of the tenth Jubilee, when all the Sons of Light and the men of the lot of Melchizedek will be atoned for. And a statute concerns them to provide them with their rewards. For this is the moment of the year of grace for Melchizedek." - DSS 11Q13 "Melchizedek document"
Wise is correct that this is the import passage of this document https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11Q13
it is also a prophecy
using the Bible, book of Jasher, and the Dead Sea Scroll/Qumran calendar
it is knowable Who is being talked about and when it occurred (the prophecy was fulfilled)
Wise is correct that this is the import passage of this document https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11Q13
it is also a prophecy
using the Bible, book of Jasher, and the Dead Sea Scroll/Qumran calendar
it is knowable Who is being talked about and when it occurred (the prophecy was fulfilled)
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American Gothic
Well-known member
they were living in Onah 8
the last of the Age of Torah
the prophecy is about the first week (of years) of the 10th Jubilee (50 year) cycle of that period
it isn't about the yearly Yom Kippur day on the Jewish calendar, but about the culmination of Atonement
culmination
[ˌkəlməˈnāSH(ə)n]
NOUN
the last of the Age of Torah
the prophecy is about the first week (of years) of the 10th Jubilee (50 year) cycle of that period
it isn't about the yearly Yom Kippur day on the Jewish calendar, but about the culmination of Atonement
culmination
[ˌkəlməˈnāSH(ə)n]
NOUN
- the highest or climactic point of something, especially as attained after a long time
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American Gothic
Well-known member
the first week (7 years) of Onah 8 is here labeled S1, 3951-57AM, 26-32ad
https://dsscalendar.org/o/o8.html (scroll middle part all the way to the bottom)
the Levitical priesthood had tribal and age restrictions, but
this prophesied about "Melchizedek" individual who died (Passover Nisan 14), was buried, and resurrected in 32ad
to secure the final atonement for all who would believe the Truth (sons of Light)
holds this position now forever - because He is Eternal
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.” Psalm 110
after the end of this 10th Jubilee cycle begins what they called age of Grace
https://dsscalendar.org/o/o8.html (scroll middle part all the way to the bottom)
the Levitical priesthood had tribal and age restrictions, but
this prophesied about "Melchizedek" individual who died (Passover Nisan 14), was buried, and resurrected in 32ad
to secure the final atonement for all who would believe the Truth (sons of Light)
holds this position now forever - because He is Eternal
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.” Psalm 110
after the end of this 10th Jubilee cycle begins what they called age of Grace
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American Gothic
Well-known member
" And He who brings good news, who proclaims salvation: it is concerning Him that it is written... To comfort all who mourn, to grant to those who mourn in Zion. To comfort those who mourn: its interpretation, to make them understand all the ages of time ... In truth ... will turn away from Belial (Satan)... by the judgements of God, as it is written concerning him, who says to Zion ; your ELOHIM reigns. Zion is ..., those who uphold the covenant, who turn from walking in way of the people. And your ELOHIM is Melchizedek, who will save them from the hand of Belial. As for that which He said, 'Then you shall send abroad the trumpet in all the land...' " DDS 11Q13
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"the prophecy of Heaven concerning the Lamb of God, even the savior of the World.
He will be delivered up spotless for transgressors. He will be sinless, yet put to death
for ungodly men in the blood of the covenant, for the salvation of the Gentiles
and of Israel. He will destroy Belial (Satan), and them that serve him."
- testament of Benjamin
and as that testament prophesied the Temple curtain being torn
when that happened, they knew the Sin issue had been dealt with by God on their behalf with finality
(but now, in Christ we have) "...liberty, forgiving them [the wrong-doings] of all their iniquities"
-
"the prophecy of Heaven concerning the Lamb of God, even the savior of the World.
He will be delivered up spotless for transgressors. He will be sinless, yet put to death
for ungodly men in the blood of the covenant, for the salvation of the Gentiles
and of Israel. He will destroy Belial (Satan), and them that serve him."
- testament of Benjamin
and as that testament prophesied the Temple curtain being torn
when that happened, they knew the Sin issue had been dealt with by God on their behalf with finality
(but now, in Christ we have) "...liberty, forgiving them [the wrong-doings] of all their iniquities"
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American Gothic
Well-known member
"And at that time Jacob sent messengers to his brother Esau...
'For I have been in these twenty years with Laban...
And I afterward through God's great mercy and kindness acquired
oxen and asses and cattle and, and men servants and maid servants.
And am now coming to my land and my home to my father and mother,
who are in the land of Canaan, and I have sent to let my lord (interestingly he defers authority to his older brother)
know all this in order to find favor in (your sight)...
so that (you) may not imagine that I have of myself obtained wealth,
or that the blessing with which with my father blessed me has benefitted me.' "
- book of Jasher ch. 32 "Jacob reconciles with Esau"
Jacob says everything he has was given to him graciously by God, thru His kindness
not because of Jacob's obedience to Noahide law or his position
Jacob was to be the next Melchizedek - it could have been Esau, but he did not value it or care
God also chose to give Rachel two boys - I don't think the sacrifice of the fruit had been commanded
sadly, she died in childbirth with the second one, Benjamin
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American Gothic
Well-known member
"After that (the Flood) there will be still more unrighteousness then that which was first committed
on the Earth, for I know the mysteries of the Holy Ones, for He, the Lord, has shown me and informed
me, and I have read them on the heavenly tablets.
I saw written on them that generation after generation will transgress...
...(until) transgression is destroyed and sin disappears from the Earth, and all
manner of good comes upon it." - testament of Lamech DSS 1Q20/Enoch 107
"tablets" are mentioned in some works - maybe similar to those found in Sumer and other places
Noah maybe took some passed down from Enoch on the Ark
on the Earth, for I know the mysteries of the Holy Ones, for He, the Lord, has shown me and informed
me, and I have read them on the heavenly tablets.
I saw written on them that generation after generation will transgress...
...(until) transgression is destroyed and sin disappears from the Earth, and all
manner of good comes upon it." - testament of Lamech DSS 1Q20/Enoch 107
"tablets" are mentioned in some works - maybe similar to those found in Sumer and other places
Noah maybe took some passed down from Enoch on the Ark
American Gothic
Well-known member
"...yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into."
1 Peter 1:8-12
even the Angels desire to understand the Scriptures and the prophecies
bump
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into."
1 Peter 1:8-12
even the Angels desire to understand the Scriptures and the prophecies
bump
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