Anomalous relative pronoun in Rom 9:5

This is my position, though I'm willing in all academic honesty to admit that the other view is also possible.

How about the third way.

Christ is over all, however there is no apposition of Christ and God.

And I remember that you are skeptical of the Sharp bandwagon, so you are aware of the tendency to twist or mangle the text for supposed doctrinal imperatives.
 
How about the third way.

Christ is over all, however there is no apposition of Christ and God.

And I remember that you are skeptical of the Sharp bandwagon, so you are aware of the tendency to twist or mangle the text for supposed doctrinal imperatives.
To me, there are two basic views: one that identifies Christ as God, and one that does not (but sees it as a reference to the Father rather than the Son). I try to stick as closely as possible to linguistic issues rather than theology, but I wonder how your viewpoint actually differs from this?

As for Sharp, quite. He tried to essentially create a rule out of the NT usages to justify his theology (with which I agree, being a "card carrying" Trinitarian), when it's really just the common rule of the anarthrous predicate common through ancient Greek literature in all periods.
 
To me, there are two basic views: one that identifies Christ as God, and one that does not (but sees it as a reference to the Father rather than the Son). I try to stick as closely as possible to linguistic issues rather than theology, but I wonder how your viewpoint actually differs from this?

Looking at the AV, there is no reference to Christ as God, though Christ is “over all”. In the apposition theory, there is too much heavy lifting for the word God, which has its natural association in God blessed.

The key issue is whether God is blessed for ever, (which is an awkward topic jump) or Christ (or Israel through its Messiah) is God blessed for ever.

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The Christ is God crew really, really wants an apposition as a doctrinal imperative. The Socinians and others who want a low Christology are unhappy if Christ is “over all” and blessed for ever..

They get you coming and they get you going, everybody must get stoned.

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How about the third way.

Christ is over all, however there is no apposition of Christ and God.

And I remember that you are skeptical of the Sharp bandwagon, so you are aware of the tendency to twist or mangle the text for supposed doctrinal imperatives.
That would have been a possibility had there been precedent for Christ being called “the one who is over all .”
 
That would have been a possibility had there been precedent for Christ being called “the one who is over all .”

‘there are many New Testament verses that fit well with Christ being over all.
Here are some that were listed courtesy of:

Joseph John Gurney (1788-1847)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_John_Gurney

Biblical Notes and Dissertations, Chiefly Intended to Confirm and Illustrate the Doctrine of the Deity of Christ: With Some Remarks on the Practical Importance of that Doctrine (1830)
https://books.google.com/books?id=cJxhAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA423
p. 423-456

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Romans 9:5 and many related high Christology verses

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Colossians 1:16 (AV)
For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,

1 Corinthians 8:6 (AV)
But to us there is but one God, the Father,
of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 1:20-23 (AV)
Which he wrought in Christ,
when he raised him from the dead,
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
and every name that is named,
not only in this world,
but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet,
and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body,
the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Philippians 2:9-10 (AV)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Hebrews 1:6 (AV)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Colossians 1:17 (AV)
And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:3 (AV)
Who being the brightness of his glory,
and the express image of his person,
and upholding all things by the word of his power,
when he had by himself purged our sins,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (AV)
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith,
all things are put under him,
it is
manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.

====================================

Romans 9:5 fits in perfectly with this group of verses, it is not a special "Jesus is God" verse, any more than the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools verses. Dual addressing is the NT norm.

====================================

Gurney does assert that “Christ is God over all” (p.437) and “even the true God” p.438.

However that is simply par for the course in the orthodox-unitarian debate environment.
He does help in references and analysis.

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‘there are many New Testament verses that fit well with Christ being over all.
Here are some that were listed courtesy of:

Joseph John Gurney (1788-1847)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_John_Gurney

Biblical Notes and Dissertations, Chiefly Intended to Confirm and Illustrate the Doctrine of the Deity of Christ: With Some Remarks on the Practical Importance of that Doctrine (1830)
https://books.google.com/books?id=cJxhAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA423
p. 423-456

====================================

Romans 9:5 and many related high Christology verses

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Colossians 1:16 (AV)
For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,

1 Corinthians 8:6 (AV)
But to us there is but one God, the Father,
of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 1:20-23 (AV)
Which he wrought in Christ,
when he raised him from the dead,
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
and every name that is named,
not only in this world,
but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet,
and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body,
the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Philippians 2:9-10 (AV)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Hebrews 1:6 (AV)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Colossians 1:17 (AV)
And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:3 (AV)
Who being the brightness of his glory,
and the express image of his person,
and upholding all things by the word of his power,
when he had by himself purged our sins,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (AV)
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith,
all things are put under him,
it is
manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.

====================================

Romans 9:5 fits in perfectly with this group of verses, it is not a special "Jesus is God" verse, any more than the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools verses. Dual addressing is the NT norm.

====================================

Gurney does assert that “Christ is God over all” (p.437) however that is simply par for the course in the orthodox-Unitarian environment. He does help in references and analysis.

====================================
None of the verses you cited use the expression ἐπὶ πάντων ("above all") of Christ. Romans 9:5 of course does not count since ἐπὶ πάντων here could be applicable to the Father, so a circular argument to use it. But elsewhere that expression occurs indisputably with reference to the Father in the writings of Apostle Paul.
 
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None of the verses you cited use the expression ἐπὶ πάντων ("above all") of Christ. Romans 9:5 of course does not count since ἐπὶ πάντων here could be applicable to the Father, so a circular argument to use it. But elsewhere that expression occurs indisputably with reference to the Father in the writings of Apostle Paul.

You are giving us a fallacy of requiring ultra-specificity.

And I doubt that you even read and considered the group of verses.

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Here is the Ephesians context.

Ephesians 4:3-10
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

========

And I suggest you read the group of verses above to understand the harmony with Romans 9:5:

Christ .. who I over alll,
 
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You are giving us a fallacy of requiring ultra-specificity.

And I doubt that you even read and considered the group of verses.

=======

Here is the Ephesians context.

Ephesians 4:3-10
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

========

And I suggest you read the group of verses above to understand the harmony with Romans 9:5:

Christ .. who I over alll,
The best part of Ephesians 4:6 is that the words "above all" denote the same thing as they do in Romans 9:5 -- serving to describe the Father in an unqualified, general way as being "above all" in a sort of stand alone expression, in addition to describing Him as being "through all" and "in all." The first of the three descriptions is a natural and delightful expression to use in doxology for the Creator. The exact, "ultra specific" words ἐπὶ πάντων have precedent in the apostle's writings for denoting the Father,... that's the point.

Cheers,
 
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Edward Dalcour neatly answered the Ephesians 4:6 argument

(Although Dalcour could have added more of the Gurney verses, as well, as a more general support. Plus more on the widely differing contexts, with the Romans verse being in the context of Israel and Christ.)


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Romans 9:5 (2017)
https://christiandefense.org/deity-of-christ/romans-95/

3) “Over all.” First, the phrase epi pantōn (“over all”) is connected to the participle phrase ho ōn: “Who is over all.” “Over all” denotes ultimate supremacy. Jesus the Messiah is supreme ruler over all Jews, Gentiles, believing, and unbelieving. It is true that Scripture calls God the Father “over all” (cf. Eph. 4:6). However, Jesus is called “over all” in Acts 10:36: “The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all).” Note the parallel to the phrase in Romans 9:5: ho ōn epi pantōn theos (lit., “who is over all God”) with the end of Acts 10:36: houtos estin pantōn kurios (lit., “He is of all Lord”). Further, in Romans 10:12, Paul states that Jesus is kurios pantōn—“Lord of all.”

The supremacy over all things is constantly expressed in Paul’s theology (esp. in Col. 1:16-17 where Jesus is Creator of all things, thus having the supremacy over all creation). As “God blessed forever,” we would except to read passages where Christ is supreme over all things; the “Lord of all”; “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8); and the Creator of all things.

==========


The Dalcour argument loses focus only where he is stuck in the apposition, Christ is God, motif.

“who is over all God” - omitting the critical comma that unites God with blessed in their natural association.
 
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Edward Dalcour neatly answered the Ephesians 4:6 argument

(Although Dalcour could have added more of the Gurney verses, as well, as a more general support. Plus more on the widely differing contexts, with the Romans verse being in the context of Israel and Christ.)


==========

Romans 9:5 (2017)
https://christiandefense.org/deity-of-christ/romans-95/

3) “Over all.” First, the phrase epi pantōn (“over all”) is connected to the participle phrase ho ōn: “Who is over all.” “Over all” denotes ultimate supremacy. Jesus the Messiah is supreme ruler over all Jews, Gentiles, believing, and unbelieving. It is true that Scripture calls God the Father “over all” (cf. Eph. 4:6). However, Jesus is called “over all” in Acts 10:36: “The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all).” Note the parallel to the phrase in Romans 9:5: ho ōn epi pantōn theos (lit., “who is over all God”) with the end of Acts 10:36: houtos estin pantōn kurios (lit., “He is of all Lord”). Further, in Romans 10:12, Paul states that Jesus is kurios pantōn—“Lord of all.”

The supremacy over all things is constantly expressed in Paul’s theology (esp. in Col. 1:16-17 where Jesus is Creator of all things, thus having the supremacy over all creation). As “God blessed forever,” we would except to read passages where Christ is supreme over all things; the “Lord of all”; “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8); and the Creator of all things.

==========


The Dalcour argument loses focus only where he is stuck in the apposition, Christ is God, motif.

“who is over all God” - omitting the critical comma that unites God with blessed in their natural association.
This fella is not very honest, or else he cannot read biblical Koine. Just one of his falsehoods highlighted above, even with a quick scan. He declares in Acts 10:36 Jesus is said to be “over all.” Well no, he is said to be “Lord of all.” πάντων Κύριος, not ἐπὶ πάντων


τὸν λόγον ὃν ἀπέστειλεν τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσραὴλ εὐαγγελιζόμενος εἰρήνην διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· οὗτός ἐστιν πάντων Κύριος.
 
Edward Dalcour neatly answered the Ephesians 4:6 argument

(Although Dalcour could have added more of the Gurney verses, as well, as a more general support. Plus more on the widely differing contexts, with the Romans verse being in the context of Israel and Christ.)


==========

Romans 9:5 (2017)
https://christiandefense.org/deity-of-christ/romans-95/

3) “Over all.” First, the phrase epi pantōn (“over all”) is connected to the participle phrase ho ōn: “Who is over all.” “Over all” denotes ultimate supremacy. Jesus the Messiah is supreme ruler over all Jews, Gentiles, believing, and unbelieving. It is true that Scripture calls God the Father “over all” (cf. Eph. 4:6). However, Jesus is called “over all” in Acts 10:36: “The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all).” Note the parallel to the phrase in Romans 9:5: ho ōn epi pantōn theos (lit., “who is over all God”) with the end of Acts 10:36: houtos estin pantōn kurios (lit., “He is of all Lord”). Further, in Romans 10:12, Paul states that Jesus is kurios pantōn—“Lord of all.”

The supremacy over all things is constantly expressed in Paul’s theology (esp. in Col. 1:16-17 where Jesus is Creator of all things, thus having the supremacy over all creation). As “God blessed forever,” we would except to read passages where Christ is supreme over all things; the “Lord of all”; “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8); and the Creator of all things.

==========


The Dalcour argument loses focus only where he is stuck in the apposition, Christ is God, motif.

“who is over all God” - omitting the critical comma that unites God with blessed in their natural association.
Nice. It also is pertinent that κύριος frequently translates יהוה in the LXX, and someone familiar with his Greek OT would be very aware of this usage. The contexts of Acts 10:36 and Rom 10:12 would certainly call this to mind.
 
This fella is not very honest, or else he cannot read biblical Koine. Just one of his falsehoods highlighted above, even with a quick scan. He declares in Acts 10:36 Jesus is said to be “over all.” Well no, he is said to be “Lord of all.” πάντων Κύριος, not ἐπὶ πάντων
I think he is quite honest, since he is telling us accurately what his interpretation of it is. To me, "Lord of all" and "The one being over all" sound pretty equivalent.
 
I think he is quite honest, since he is telling us accurately what his interpretation of it is. To me, "Lord of all" and "The one being over all" sound pretty equivalent.
He didn’t say , “my interpretation is that..”nor “it is pretty equivalent” ( which anyhow is not even true). He made the following declaration: “However, Jesus is called “over all” in Acts 10:36:..” Someone who had just taken his word for it would have been misled into thinking that in Acts 10:36 the apostle was calling Jesus one who is “over all,” instead of “Lord of all.” Not honest.
 
Nice. It also is pertinent that κύριος frequently translates יהוה in the LXX, and someone familiar with his Greek OT would be very aware of this usage. The contexts of Acts 10:36 and Rom 10:12 would certainly call this to mind.
That’s a nonsense argument, since κύριος is never a translation of יהוה in the GNT other than for the Father, and someone familiar with the Koine of the New Testament would have been quite aware of this .
 
Murray Harris wrote that God and blessed have a natural association. Yet if God is placed to be in apposition to Christ this connection is weakened or broken. This can be seen where commentators use the AV text:

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

and a comma is placed after God and then you have three distinct descriptions or attributes of Christ.

over all
God
blessed for ever

This is friendly to the “Christ is God” interpretation, yet it is forced and awkward, and God loses its natural association with blessed.

===================

Returning to
“God blessed for ever”

Here are the ways to fill this out:

==================

#1 - (Christ is) God (who is) blessed for ever (by creation, his people, Paul, et al)

#2 - Stop —— God (is) blessed for ever (by creation, his people, Paul, et al)

#3 - (Christ is) God blessed for ever == blessed by God

#4 - (Israel through Christ is) God blessed for ever == blessed by God

==================

The normal debate ie 1 vs 2, high and low Christology, duking it out.

Yet from the AV text, which follows the Greek word-order, 3 and 4, which are closely related, look very natural.

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Who is “over all” is grammatically a lesser question. The natural reading places Christ over all, and the phrase is a subordinate clause. The attempt to make God “over all” is a strained reading, requiring a special stop and a difficult word order.

However, this has been hashed out from both main historical sides.

it is “God blessed for ever” where we have special considerations.
 
The “natural reading” is “God who is over all” because the apostle says this once before. Your pride is causing you to be deceived.

It is not the natural reading because:

Christ must be separated from “who is over all” by a very dubious stop.
God must be separated from its “natural association” (Murray Harris) as part of God blessed.

You should carefully read the many high Christology verses above.

And your silly personal attack is reported.
 
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