Was Paul the Thirteenth Apostle of Jesus?

sk0rpi0n

Active member

As the author of 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament, Paul is arguably the most influential apostle in Christianity. Interestingly, Paul never met Jesus when the latter lived on earth. He also has a history of viciously persecuting the followers of Jesus. It was only after an alleged encounter with Jesus during a journey that Paul changed his ways and started proclaiming himself as an apostle of Jesus. Whether or not Paul was speaking the truth is a separate matter and will be addressed in later videos, God willing. But in this video we will examine if it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle.

According to the gospel account, there were 12 apostles. After Judas killed himself, 2 candidates were shortlisted to be the replacement for Judas. They were Matthias and Barsabbas. Peter prayed and cast lots. The lot fell on Matthias, who then joined the disciples. This account appears in Acts 1:12-26. Note that the number of Apostles was fixed at 12. Peter did not enlist both Matthias and Barsabbas because there was no room for a 13th apostle.

Peter’s criteria for selecting an apostle was that candidates had to have been with them since the time Jesus was baptised.

"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:20-22)

Thus, the criteria that an apostle candidate had to meet was that he should have been with the apostles from the time of the baptism of Jesus until the time of Jesus' ascension. Peter was simply following what he heard from Jesus. In John 15, Jesus said the following:

He said to them: “You also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning” (John 15:27)

Furthermore, Jesus said there are only 12 apostles.

“Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28)

The book of Revelation also says there are only 12 apostles.

“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:10, 14)

As we have seen, twelve thrones, twelve tribes, twelve foundations and twelve apostles. The number of apostles was fixed at 12.

If Paul was indeed a true apostle, then there would have been 13 thrones and 13 foundations with the names of the 13 apostles (that is, the original 11, Matthias and Paul). We have no reason to think Paul was among the 12, as Judas was replaced by Matthias long before Paul’s conversion. If it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle, Peter would have selected both Matthias and Barsabbas instead of drawing lots to choose one of them.

Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Paul simply could not have been an apostle.
 
1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, and set apart for the gospel of God

Plus many other references.
 
1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, and set apart for the gospel of God

Plus many other references.

Yes, I am aware that Paul called himself an apostle, and that he begins most of his letters calling himself an apostle. But those are just claims. It doesn't prove Paul was indeed an apostle.

Besides, as outlined in the OP, Jesus and the book of Revelation teach there were only 12 apostles. So there's no room in the apostle department for a 13th apostle, i.e., Paul.
 
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12 apostles to the Jews and 1 apostle to the Gentiles could be taken into account.

Jesus doesn't make any mention of a 13th apostle.

Jesus gave the disciples the task of preaching to all creation (so that includes Jews and Gentiles).

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16:15)

Also, Peter was the apostle to the Gentiles.

“After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ‘Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe'” (Acts 15:7)

Paul shows up out of nowhere and declares himself an apostle to the gentiles.
 
After mulling this question for a while, and I could be wrong if presented better information.

The original 12 were promised 12 thrones over Israel. And Mattias was specifically chosen to replace Judas as part of the 12. There are other "apostles" in the NT, but they didn't replace anybody.

The big 12 are apparently unique.
 
Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Paul simply could not have been an apostle.
and that's the difference from being an Apostle and being an apostle.
apostle means one who is send
Apostle is the title of the Twelve

Paul is not one of the Twelve; but he is an apostle
just like
Scripture Says: Barnabas Is an apostle
Acts 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out.

Scripture Says: James Is an apostle
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Scripture Says: Jesus Is the apostle
Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

apostle; one who is sent (by God)
 
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...
Also, Peter was the apostle to the Gentiles.
Peter apostle to the Jews. Paul apostle to the Gentiles.
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )

...
“After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ‘Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe'” (Acts 15:7)
Peter preaching to the Gentiles does not make him an apostle to the Gentiles.

Paul shows up out of nowhere and declares himself an apostle to the gentiles.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
 
Yes, I am aware that Paul called himself an apostle, and that he begins most of his letters calling himself an apostle. But those are just claims. It doesn't prove Paul was indeed an apostle.

Besides, as outlined in the OP, Jesus and the book of Revelation teach there were only 12 apostles. So there's no room in the apostle department for a 13th apostle, i.e., Paul.
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness...you know the rest.

"But those are just claims. It doesn't prove Paul was indeed an apostle."....Yes it does.
 

As the author of 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament, Paul is arguably the most influential apostle in Christianity. Interestingly, Paul never met Jesus when the latter lived on earth. He also has a history of viciously persecuting the followers of Jesus. It was only after an alleged encounter with Jesus during a journey that Paul changed his ways and started proclaiming himself as an apostle of Jesus. Whether or not Paul was speaking the truth is a separate matter and will be addressed in later videos, God willing. But in this video we will examine if it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle.

According to the gospel account, there were 12 apostles. After Judas killed himself, 2 candidates were shortlisted to be the replacement for Judas. They were Matthias and Barsabbas. Peter prayed and cast lots. The lot fell on Matthias, who then joined the disciples. This account appears in Acts 1:12-26. Note that the number of Apostles was fixed at 12. Peter did not enlist both Matthias and Barsabbas because there was no room for a 13th apostle.

Peter’s criteria for selecting an apostle was that candidates had to have been with them since the time Jesus was baptised.

"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:20-22)

Thus, the criteria that an apostle candidate had to meet was that he should have been with the apostles from the time of the baptism of Jesus until the time of Jesus' ascension. Peter was simply following what he heard from Jesus. In John 15, Jesus said the following:

He said to them: “You also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning” (John 15:27)

Furthermore, Jesus said there are only 12 apostles.

“Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28)

The book of Revelation also says there are only 12 apostles.

“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:10, 14)

As we have seen, twelve thrones, twelve tribes, twelve foundations and twelve apostles. The number of apostles was fixed at 12.

If Paul was indeed a true apostle, then there would have been 13 thrones and 13 foundations with the names of the 13 apostles (that is, the original 11, Matthias and Paul). We have no reason to think Paul was among the 12, as Judas was replaced by Matthias long before Paul’s conversion. If it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle, Peter would have selected both Matthias and Barsabbas instead of drawing lots to choose one of them.

Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Paul simply could not have been an apostle.
Yes Paul has influenced more people to follow his doctrine than Jesus ever did to follow his. And they are not the same doctrine.
 
apostles, prophets... are souls who can hear Him. there is no rule, except maybe by esau types,
that says a soul alive right now cannot listen...cannot hear...

and many do hear Him. And they are His Souls.

The reason for 12 has nothing to do with Paul meeting Him..
and belongs to a different Theme.... if later Paul met Him... and came to Him and God gave him a job to do...that is fine...
Whether he is this or that apostle is NOT relevant.... except as a legality by those trying to put him down..

Only that He met Christ and Christ spoke to Him matters.

This is the promise of all His 144k Sons..to meet Christ on the clouds...
and go to paradise with Him and rule with Him.. and restore Eden...
as New Eden.

I so desire to meet all His saints..Isaiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, and Paul...
to meet all the martyrs who died honoring their promise to Him
.. we are a family.
 
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As the author of 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament, Paul is arguably the most influential apostle in Christianity. Interestingly, Paul never met Jesus when the latter lived on earth. He also has a history of viciously persecuting the followers of Jesus. It was only after an alleged encounter with Jesus during a journey that Paul changed his ways and started proclaiming himself as an apostle of Jesus. Whether or not Paul was speaking the truth is a separate matter and will be addressed in later videos, God willing. But in this video we will examine if it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle.

According to the gospel account, there were 12 apostles. After Judas killed himself, 2 candidates were shortlisted to be the replacement for Judas. They were Matthias and Barsabbas. Peter prayed and cast lots. The lot fell on Matthias, who then joined the disciples. This account appears in Acts 1:12-26. Note that the number of Apostles was fixed at 12. Peter did not enlist both Matthias and Barsabbas because there was no room for a 13th apostle.

Peter’s criteria for selecting an apostle was that candidates had to have been with them since the time Jesus was baptised.

"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:20-22)

Thus, the criteria that an apostle candidate had to meet was that he should have been with the apostles from the time of the baptism of Jesus until the time of Jesus' ascension. Peter was simply following what he heard from Jesus. In John 15, Jesus said the following:

He said to them: “You also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning” (John 15:27)

Furthermore, Jesus said there are only 12 apostles.

“Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28)

The book of Revelation also says there are only 12 apostles.

“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:10, 14)

As we have seen, twelve thrones, twelve tribes, twelve foundations and twelve apostles. The number of apostles was fixed at 12.

If Paul was indeed a true apostle, then there would have been 13 thrones and 13 foundations with the names of the 13 apostles (that is, the original 11, Matthias and Paul). We have no reason to think Paul was among the 12, as Judas was replaced by Matthias long before Paul’s conversion. If it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle, Peter would have selected both Matthias and Barsabbas instead of drawing lots to choose one of them.

Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Paul simply could not have been an apostle.

There were more than 13 apostles.
 
There were more than 13 apostles.
There are thousands of them. An apostle is one who is successful Christian missionary in a country or to a people. But then one has to look at what that apostle is teaching compared to what Jesus taught if they are like him or not. Everyone in this forum is an apostle pushing their own religion and beliefs for a god. Paul was master at this getting people to follow his doctrine to be like him as a sinner instead of Jesus to be without sin, cannot sin because we are born of God.

A true apostle for Christ is exactly like the Father of it.

How can one say he is a follower of Christ if they are not like Him? If they are not they do not follow the way at all. And there are many in this forum who say there is no way they can be like Him, which is flat out antichrist.
 
Peter preaching to the Gentiles does not make him an apostle to the Gentiles.

And Paul preaching to the Gentiles does not make him an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter was an original apostle, his words carry more weight than Paul's.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Yeah I know Paul claimed to be an apostle many times. Quoting the claims that Paul made doesn't prove he was an apostle.
 
There were more than 13 apostles.
Jesus and the book of Revelation say there were only 12.

“Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28)

“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:10, 14)
 
There are other "apostles" in the NT, but they didn't replace anybody.

But if Jesus and the book of Revelation say there were only 12 apostles, then there's no question of there being "other apostles". Either they were among the 12, or they were not apostles at all!
 
rules regarding upper and lower case words don't apply to the Bible.
But proper nouns and context do matter.
Acts 6:2 (Judas is not present; Mathias not yet selected))
"So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables."
The Twelve is a proper noun for the group

What about the Scriptures I quoted?

Scripture Says: Barnabas Is an apostle
Acts 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out.

Scripture Says: James Is an apostle
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Scripture Says: Jesus Is the apostle
Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

apostle; one who is sent (by God)
 
----------------------- Sent to get a bride for the Promised Son ------------------

Gen. Ch.24 1-8
And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age:
and the Lord had blessed Abraham in all things.

2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house,
that ruled over all that he had,

Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh
3 And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven,
and the God of the earth,
that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites,
among whom I dwell:​
4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred,
and take a wife unto my son Isaac.​

5 And the servant said unto him,
Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land:
must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest
?

6 And Abraham said unto him,
Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again.
7 The Lord God of heaven, which took me from my father's house,
and from the land of my kindred,
and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me,
saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land;
he shall send his angel before thee,
and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.
8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee
then thou shalt be clear from this my oath:
only bring not my son thither again.​

--------------------- The Bride ------------------

2 Cor. 11:1
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
 
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And Paul preaching to the Gentiles does not make him an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter was an original apostle, his words carry more weight than Paul's.



Yeah I know Paul claimed to be an apostle many times. Quoting the claims that Paul made doesn't prove he was an apostle.
Non-Bible believer, got it!
 
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