"Did Heavenly Father ever sin during his mortal probation?"

[brotherofJared]

When I was a Mormon (way back) we didn't consider ourselves sinners because we were Mormons striving to be perfect.

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard a person who claims they were once a member say. I don't know what you were taught but I've never heard anything like that.

Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith
God governs the universe by law, and we are subject to that law.
It should be conceded by all people that since the Almighty governs the entire universe by immutable law, man, who is the greatest of all his creations, must himself be subject to such law. The Lord has stated this truth tersely and convincingly in a revelation to the Church:

“All kingdoms have a law given;

“And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

“And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

“All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.” (D&C 88:36–39.)

This is not support for your statement:

When I was a Mormon (way back) we didn't consider ourselves sinners because we were Mormons striving to be perfect.

This truth is self-evident. Thus, it is only reasonable that we should expect the kingdom of God to be governed by law and all who desire to enter there to be subject to the law. “Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.” (D&C 132:8.)

The Lord has given to man a code of laws that we call the gospel of Jesus Christ. Due to lack of inspiration and spiritual guidance, men may differ in relation to these laws and their application, but there can hardly be a dispute in regard to the fact that such laws do exist, and that all who seek entrance into that kingdom are subject to them.4

We have every truth, every doctrine, every law and requirement, every performance and ordinance needed to save and exalt us in the highest heaven of the celestial world.5

In fact, there seems to be no point in your bringing this up at all. You might as well have said, Mormons don't consider themselves sinners because "Oh Say, Can You See" is the National Anthem of the United States.

 

[Janice Bower]

I've seen the changes in Mormonism since then.. Joseph Fielding Smith didn't call Mormons sinners. He emphasized obedience just as LDS lesson manuals did. Joseph Fielding Smith has passed away; so has Spencer W. Kimball. My best friends were temple Mormons and didn't believe Mormons were "wretches" like other sinners. I expect nasty responses full of negative comments from the Mormons who post here. Aaron32 tried to stay on topic rather than lowering himself to nasty remarks.

 

[dberrie2020]

I understand that sadness. I spent years in misery because of their teachings about Heavenly Father and Jesus and wasn't aware of the escape route in the Bible!

Perhaps you could explain to us what you were taught about Heavenly Father and Jesus--which made you spend years in misery? What did you find in the Bible which was an "escape route"? You are aware the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

 

[Theo1689]

Why don't they have the black name tags?

He wasn't interviewing missionaries on their missions. He was interviewing everyday Mormons near temple square. Do all Mormons have black name tags?

But I know Mormons weren't taught the answers to those kind of questions. That would mean that Jesus, too, was a sinner.

No, Mormons believe that Jesus never sinned. But they also believe that sinners can become gods. So the question was whether HF was a sinner like us before he became a god, or whether he was a sinless saviour on his own planet like Jesus was. Some Mormons believe the latter.

When I was a Mormon (way back) we didn't consider ourselves sinners because we were Mormons striving to be perfect.

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that what Mormons believe and proclaim has changed in the past 30 years.

 

[Theo1689]

You are aware the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

Yes, we're all aware.
And it goes largely ignored (that "not translated correctly" copout).
You guys ignore all the "only one god exists" passages.
Ignore all the "not by works" passages.
All thte pasages about monogamy, about marriage ending at death, about elders and deacons needing to be married, etc. etc. etc.

 

[brotherofJared]

"Then what you're saying is that God became God by obedience to the gospel program, which culminates in eternal marriage."
Achieving a Celestial Marriage, c. 1976, 1992, p.4

Being obedient does not imply that the person was not. Was Jesus obedient? Again, it's obvious that if He did what He saw His Father do, that His Father was also obedient. You either believe what Jesus said or you don't. We do.

 

[brotherofJared]

Perhaps you missed the day in biology class where they explained human DNA.

Perhaps you don't understand the argument. His Father was human, His mother was human, that makes Him human. What part of human DNA do you think I missed?

Christ didn’t have a human father.

LOL. Of course did. Perhaps you missed the day in biology class where they explained how humans are born.

He told us who His father was.

Again, it's that's not the argument. We believe his Father was God the Father. I believe you guys will disagree with that, but Jesus never said His Father wasn't human. The problem here is that IF Mary was human, then then the only way she could have conceived was if the Father was the SAME species. That's biology 101.

And He did things no human can physically do

Yes. He did do things that we can't do. We can't restore life to our own dead bodies. God, His Father, didn't give us that ability. He did give it to His Son. One could argue that God will have to give us all that AFTER the resurrection or we will not be able to maintain the body we will receive in the resurrection (If it is material, it can be damaged, even obliterated. If we do not have life within us as God has life within Him, then the separation of body and spirit will be a thing we'll have to deal with, the same as we deal with death today. This is just common sense. The crossover from those who will have that power within themselves and those who are exalted beings is that exalted beings will be able to endow others with that ability as the Father did with His Son.)

As for everything else He did, you don't know that no one else has done them. I believe it was you who made the lame claim that no one has raised the dead besides Jesus and the Bible refutes that argument. The Bible also tells us of others who walked on water. It also tells us of humans who parted bodies of water and walked on dry ground in the midst of the waters. Jesus didn't do that. Is this now going to be a competition to see who did more than the other? Isn't that the same argument as "my daddy is bigger than yours"?

The only thing Jesus did that no one other human being could do was come back from the dead himself and guess what, now that He's done that, so will every other human being that has ever lived and ever will live. That is the central point of the atonement, to overcome the consequences of Adam's transgression and restore the entire human family to life. It is the atonement that makes Jesus unique among human beings and he couldn't have done that if he wasn't 100% human because mortal humans die, spirits don't, resurrected humans don't. God the Father, a resurrected human being, cannot die, Jesus could.

The fact that he is God and was God doesn't change the fact that as a mortal human, he could die.

He was always God.

We never said he wasn't.

 

[brotherofJared]

Joseph Fielding Smith didn't call Mormons sinners.

I believe that goes without saying. It's not like it's a badge of honor. Just because we don't wear it as such doesn't mean that we don't know that we are all sinners. I believe the gospel teaches to resist the natural man and to overcome our sins instead of brandishing them like a weapon against those who try to do what Jesus taught.

He emphasized obedience just as LDS lesson manuals did.

That is the way that Jesus taught us to walk in. Even Jesus Himself walked in that way. His words to "come follow me" is not an empty phrase.

My best friends were temple Mormons and didn't believe Mormons were "wretches" like other sinners

No. The theology of total depravity is foreign to our religion. While it does exist, it is not the standard that all men live by. The Bible is riddled with examples of men who walked after the Lord. There is nothing in the Bible that would suggest that it isn't they way we should walk or that we shouldn't strive to walk after the Lord. In fact, the scriptures are quite clear that failing to walk after the Lord brings about a separation from the Lord. The only way to fix that is repentance which requires that those who repent must correct their course. It seems to me that to teach that we have no choice in that matter is to teach against the Bible's message. The Bible has two references to no one doing good, "no not one" and if course, our good works do not compare to God's but that is no reason not to try. Those passages do not support the idea that some of those people are trying to do good. Without God in the world, there is little doubt that men would devolve into chaos, but that is not the condition we find ourselves in, therefore, while we are sinners, we are far from depraved. There are those who are, but that is not the standard men rally around.

The idea of total depravity is worse that faith alone theology and is of the devil. To give way to it is to give ourself permission to be depraved.

 

[Magdalena]

Perhaps you don't understand the argument. His Father was human, His mother was human, that makes Him human. What part of human DNA do you think I missed?

LOL. Of course did. Perhaps you missed the day in biology class where they explained how humans are born.

Again, it's that's not the argument. We believe his Father was God the Father. I believe you guys will disagree with that, but Jesus never said His Father wasn't human. The problem here is that IF Mary was human, then then the only way she could have conceived was if the Father was the SAME species. That's biology 101.

Yes. He did do things that we can't do. We can't restore life to our own dead bodies. God, His Father, didn't give us that ability. He did give it to His Son. One could argue that God will have to give us all that AFTER the resurrection or we will not be able to maintain the body we will receive in the resurrection (If it is material, it can be damaged, even obliterated. If we do not have life within us as God has life within Him, then the separation of body and spirit will be a thing we'll have to deal with, the same as we deal with death today. This is just common sense. The crossover from those who will have that power within themselves and those who are exalted beings is that exalted beings will be able to endow others with that ability as the Father did with His Son.)

As for everything else He did, you don't know that no one else has done them. I believe it was you who made the lame claim that no one has raised the dead besides Jesus and the Bible refutes that argument. The Bible also tells us of others who walked on water. It also tells us of humans who parted bodies of water and walked on dry ground in the midst of the waters. Jesus didn't do that. Is this now going to be a competition to see who did more than the other? Isn't that the same argument as "my daddy is bigger than yours"?

The only thing Jesus did that no one other human being could do was come back from the dead himself and guess what, now that He's done that, so will every other human being that has ever lived and ever will live. That is the central point of the atonement, to overcome the consequences of Adam's transgression and restore the entire human family to life. It is the atonement that makes Jesus unique among human beings and he couldn't have done that if he wasn't 100% human because mortal humans die, spirits don't, resurrected humans don't. God the Father, a resurrected human being, cannot die, Jesus could.

The fact that he is God and was God doesn't change the fact that as a mortal human, he could die.

We never said he wasn't.

Joseph Smith said God was not always God. You can deny it all you want, but that’s what he taught. And everyone after him taught it, until modern Mormons became embarrassed by it and tried to skew it to mean something else. Like a lot of other doctrines he made up.

 

[Janice Bower]

He wasn't interviewing missionaries on their missions. He was interviewing everyday Mormons near temple square. Do all Mormons have black name tags?

No. I misunderstood and thought they were companions.

No, Mormons believe that Jesus never sinned. But they also believe that sinners can become gods. So the question was whether HF was a sinner like us before he became a god, or whether he was a sinless saviour on his own planet like Jesus was. Some Mormons believe the latter.

If they truly believe that I have to question the following:

As Jesus said: “Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” [John 5:19.] He came into this life to do the will of his Father, and not his own will. Our desire and determination should be the same.

Chapter 11: ‘I Seek Not Mine Own Will, but the Will of the Father’

Chapter 11: ‘I Seek Not Mine Own Will, but the Will of the Father’

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that what Mormons believe and proclaim has changed in the past 30 years.

I agree.

So I have questions. Was the father a savior when he was younger? Do the father and son have white hair?

 

[Janice Bower]

Joseph Smith said God was not always God. You can deny it all you want, but that’s what he taught. And everyone after him taught it, until modern Mormons became embarrassed by it and tried to skew it to mean something else. Like a lot of other doctrines he made up.

Search These Commandments, 1984, teaches that God was once a man.

 

[Magdalena]

Search These Commandments, 1984, teaches that God was once a man.

Thanks. I’ll look for that.

 

[brotherofJared]

Joseph Smith said God was not always God.

No. You said that. Please show me the exact quote "god was not always god" by Joseph Smith. It's not there. You've made it up. He said, he was going to explain how he came to be God. We say that all the time, but it's never been a reference to God once not being God. You are putting words in our mouths.

If Joseph Smith said that, then you need to show me where he proved it from the Bible. That's what he said he was going to do, but that was not what he did. What he did was prove, by the Bible that God is a man, a human, by the Bible. Clearly, his message was that God was not what we have imagined him to be. You guys imagine him to be an incorporeal object floating in space, everywhere and yet nowhere. I'm surprised more women haven't tried to blame their pregnancies on God. If Mary could get away with it, why can't other women?

The religions of our critics can't support their own weight.

You can deny it all you want, but that’s what he taught.

I don't have to deny anything that didn't happen. You are simply wrong.

And everyone after him taught it, until modern Mormons became embarrassed by it and tried to skew it to mean something else.

False.

 

[brotherofJared]

Search These Commandments, 1984, teaches that God was once a man.

That's the best you can do? Why don't you just say, it's in the library.

 

[Magdalena]

No. You said that. Please show me the exact quote "god was not always god" by Joseph Smith. It's not there. You've made it up. He said, he was going to explain how he came to be God. We say that all the time, but it's never been a reference to God once not being God. You are putting words in our mouths.

For the 25th time…

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” ~ Joseph Smith, General Conference, April 1844.

If Joseph Smith said that, then you need to show me where he proved it from the Bible. That's what he said he was going to do, but that was not what he did. What he did was prove, by the Bible that God is a man, a human, by the Bible. Clearly, his message was that God was not what we have imagined him to be. You guys imagine him to be an incorporeal object floating in space, everywhere and yet nowhere.

He didn’t prove it from the Bible. It’s not in the Bible.

I'm surprised more women haven't tried to blame their pregnancies on God. If Mary could get away with it, why can't other women?

Are you kidding?

 

[brotherofJared]

For the 25th time…

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” ~ Joseph Smith, General Conference, April 1844.

For the 25th time, the context does not support your claim. Now, please highlight the exact quote, "God was not always God". They are not in that quote anywhere. Please provide the quote where he said that.

He didn’t prove it from the Bible. It’s not in the Bible.

That's because you are wrong about what he said. He did use the Bible and he did prove his claim by the Bible.

 

[Janice Bower]

Thanks. I’ll look for that.

I don't think that manual has been put online. I've hunted for it for years so that I could copy and paste or give a link. Only in the past month have I found copies for sale online.

 

[Janice Bower]

King Follett Sermon(2 parts):

The King Follett Sermon

The King Follett Sermon

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The King Follett Sermon

The King Follett Sermon

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Magdalena]

For the 25th time, the context does not support your claim. Now, please highlight the exact quote, "God was not always God". They are not in that quote anywhere. Please provide the quote where he said that.

That's because you are wrong about what he said. He did use the Bible and he did prove his claim by the Bible.

Janice has posted links for you. I suggest you read the whole thing line by line.

 

[Bonnie]

For the 25th time, the context does not support your claim. Now, please highlight the exact quote, "God was not always God". They are not in that quote anywhere. Please provide the quote where he said that.

That's because you are wrong about what he said. He did use the Bible and he did prove his claim by the Bible.

She is not wrong. What idea was Smith refuting here: "“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” ~ Joseph Smith, General Conference, April 1844."

What is "THAT" idea that Smith was going to refute? Then read the surrounding context in the KFD.