Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

[pilgrim]

There were disagreements even when Paul walked this earth......yet all those born from above were still united IN HIM.


Why do you assume that doesn't mean united IN HIM? The body of Christ is ONE in Him. Always has been, always will be.

And were the disagreements resolved? Yes. How? By agreeing to disagree? By saying 'Oh well, at least it isn't essential"?
No, by appealing to the Church to resolve it.
Protestants can't do this biblical way of resolving disputes because they not only left the one Church with the authority to do so, but also spend an inordinate amount of time attacking it.

 

[4Him]

And were the disagreements resolved? Yes. How? By agreeing to disagree? By saying 'Oh well, at least it isn't essential"?
No, by appealing to the Church to resolve it.

Yes, the body of believers.....not your apostate religious institution.

We take disagreements to other Christians, not religious organizations.

Protestants can't do this biblical way of resolving disputes

Yes, they do because they do it biblically.

because they not only left the one Church with the authority to do so, but also spend an inordinate amount of time attacking it.

^^^nonsensical Catholics propaganda^^^

 

[pilgrim]

Yes, the body of believers.....not your apostate religious institution.

We take disagreements to other Christians, not religious organizations.


Yes, they do because they do it biblically.


^^^nonsensical Catholics propaganda^^^

When is the last time "they" had a church council that was binding on the whole Church, as we see in Scripture?

 

[4Him]

When is the last time "they" had a church council that was binding on the whole Church, as we see in Scripture?

Nothing your church does is binding on HIS WHOLE CHURCH.

 

[pilgrim]

Nothing your church does is binding on HIS WHOLE CHURCH.

Diversion.

Protestants do not have councils binding on the whole Church, BECAUSE THEY LACK ANY AUTHORITY TO DO SO.

 

[Nondenom40]

As I've said, we read and interpret the encounter very differently. And I assure you it is not the Church forcing me to believe, it is the Scripture itself.

Luke 1 39 In those days Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

Imagine being there as an observer of this event! My own heart nearly jumps from my chest when I witness this blessed woman with the blessed child in her womb coming up to her cousins front door.

Still says nothing about mary being 'above' women'. Regardless what you or your church teaches, do you or don't you have a verse that says mary is above all women? These are your words;

"I cannot regard that as anything less than God exalting this woman above all others. "

The text is clear she is blessed among women. Its your claim can you prove it using the bible? You obviously have no aversions to quoting the bible so lets see the verse.

 

[4Him]

Diversion.

Fact. NOTHING your church says or does is binding on HIS WHOLE CHURCH.

Protestants do not have councils binding on the whole Church, BECAUSE THEY LACK ANY AUTHORITY TO DO SO.

^^More Catholic nonsense^^^

because you can't refute the fact that your church can't bind anything on HIS church.

 

[Theo1689]

And were the disagreements resolved? Yes. How? By agreeing to disagree? By saying 'Oh well, at least it isn't essential"?
No, by appealing to the Church to resolve it.
Protestants can't do this biblical way of resolving disputes because they not only left the one Church with the authority to do so, but also spend an inordinate amount of time attacking it.

And once again, Romanists run away to try (and fail) to attack Protestantism, since they know Romanism is bankrupt, indefensible, and worthless.

 

[Theo1689]

Diversion.

Protestants do not have councils binding on the whole Church, BECAUSE THEY LACK ANY AUTHORITY TO DO SO.

Yes, Romanists ALWAYS "divert" and "derail" to try (and fail) to attack Protestantism, since they know Romanism is bankrupt, indefensible, and worthless.

 

[Stella1000]

Still says nothing about mary being 'above' women'. Regardless what you or your church teaches, do you or don't you have a verse that says mary is above all women? These are your words;

"I cannot regard that as anything less than God exalting this woman above all others. "

The text is clear she is blessed among women. Its your claim can you prove it using the bible? You obviously have no aversions to quoting the bible so lets see the verse.

“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?" (Luke 1:42-43)

Elizabeth is in awe of her cousin. She calls her blessed and she calls the baby blessed. They are both in their own roles, special/blessed.

 

[Theo1689]

As I've said, we read and interpret the encounter very differently. And I assure you it is not the Church forcing me to believe, it is the Scripture itself.

Luke 1 39 In those days Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

Imagine being there as an observer of this event! My own heart nearly jumps from my chest when I witness this blessed woman with the blessed child in her womb coming up to her cousins front door.

Romanists keep telling me that it is impossible to properly interpret the Bible, and that any attempt by you is nothing but worthless opinion.

So why don't you know this?

 

[4Him]

“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?" (Luke 1:42-43)

AMONG doesn't equate ABOVE.

Elizabeth is in awe of her cousin.

Maybe she was in awe at what God has done, not in awe of Mary.

She calls her blessed and she calls the baby blessed. They are both in their own roles, special/blessed.

No one has said otherwise. You will not find one non Catholic that denies Mary was blessed. Not ONE.

 

[Nondenom40]

And were the disagreements resolved? Yes. How? By agreeing to disagree? By saying 'Oh well, at least it isn't essential"?
No, by appealing to the Church to resolve it.
Protestants can't do this biblical way of resolving disputes because they not only left the one Church with the authority to do so, but also spend an inordinate amount of time attacking it.

Your church has plenty of disunity. Don't try to pretend otherwise. Your last council was so watered down theologically it split catholics. Thats why you have sedevecantists now. Even a vocal one on these boards. You have bishops in Germany pushing gay rights. Scandals galore. And not one council abolished any of the issues it gathered to fight against. At Nicea the arians were defeated only to come back again and again. So while you cheer lead for rome don't think we don't know the dirty little secrets rome has.

 

[pilgrim]

Fact. NOTHING your church says or does is binding on HIS WHOLE CHURCH.


^^More Catholic nonsense^^^

because you can't refute the fact that your church can't bind anything on HIS church.

What you call nonsense was called the Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15. That was precedent for solving disagreements in the Church.
The Church has continued to have councils in response to disagreements throughout the ages.

So show me the same in your "Church".

Or have Protestants become so comfortable with divisions that they see no need to resolve them?

 

[4Him]

What you call nonsense was called the Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15.

Which has nothing to do with your apostate church.

That was precedent for solving disagreements in the Church.
The Church has continued to have councils in response to disagreements throughout the ages.

Yet your apostate church is chock full of disagreements.

Or have Protestants become so comfortable with divisions that they see no need to resolve them?

There are no divisions in my church.

 

[Nondenom40]

“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?" (Luke 1:42-43)

Elizabeth is in awe of her cousin. She calls her blessed and she calls the baby blessed. They are both in their own roles, special/blessed.

With your hermenutic, i guess Paul and Barnabas were gods.

Acts 14
11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us!” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, since he was the chief speaker.

If thats how youre going to interpret a verse then you have no problem with these two being gods.

Liz being in awe of her cousin doesn't translate to "God exalting mary above all others."

 

[Stella1000]

With your hermenutic, i guess Paul and Barnabas were gods.

Acts 14
11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us!” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, since he was the chief speaker.

If thats how youre going to interpret a verse then you have no problem with these two being gods.

Liz being in awe of her cousin doesn't translate to "God exalting mary above all others."

I think that Christian fundamentalists deny any spiritual hierarchy but I know that many Protestant denominations do exalt our Fathers/Mothers in faith as Saints with a capital S. There are many Protestant churches bearing their names. So it isn't just Catholic to recognise exalted souls that lead us to Christ.

 

[Theo1689]

So show me the same in your "Church".

Why do you keep RUNNING AWAY from discussing Romanism?
It's because you know you can't defend it, because you know it's indefensible.

Or have Protestants become so comfortable with divisions that they see no need to resolve them?

We would love to.
But Romanists refuse to admit when they're wrong.

 

[Theo1689]

I think that Christian fundamentalists deny any spiritual hierarchy but I know that many Protestant denominations do exalt our Fathers/Mothers in faith as Saints with a capital S. There are many Protestant churches bearing their names. So it isn't just Catholic to recognise exalted souls that lead us to Christ.

So pointing out that others make the same error that you do doesn't deny that you are committing error.

"But mommy! Billy did it too! Waaaahhhhhh!"

 

[Nondenom40]

I think that Christian fundamentalists deny any spiritual hierarchy but I know that many Protestant denominations do exalt our Fathers/Mothers in faith as Saints with a capital S. There are many Protestant churches bearing their names. So it isn't just Catholic to recognise exalted souls that lead us to Christ.

You can't back up your claim so attack the fundies. Is that how it works? What spiritual hierarchy is even being discussed here? If you had the verse in question you would have given it. But like so many today, instead of just admitting you don't have the verse and its your personal opinion, you double down with an attack on a group not even being discussed.