Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

From Trent 32:
"If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly MERIT INCREASE of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Sorry, but your church does teach that the good works one does once one is saved do indeed help that person to keep on meriting grace and eternal life.

We do understand that being made a new creation in Christ Jesus leads to rejecting sin and wanting to do acts of love--but done in salvation, not for salvation."

Wow. You can quote Trent. I am so impressed. :rolleyes:

Bonnie, anyone can quote stuff. Quoting stuff doesn't mean you understand it.

Now my question: with WHAT do you think the Christian is meriting salvation if not Grace, in the mind of Trent? Grace perfects Grace. What the good works do is increase our capacity for Grace. That is what Trent is talking about. The Grace is there. It is just that the more our Faith works in love, the greater our capacity for God to continue to pour His life into our souls.
 
What part of "not saved by Faith alone" don't Lutherans understand?

I asked you first.
And please----don't go on this whole "But waaaait! James is saying that a dead Faith produces no works, a living Faith produces works" bit, or "Yeah, like, you know, like James is contrasting a dead Faith with a living Faith" or "You know, like, works vindicate Faith" or whatever exegetical dance you want. Been there, done that, not interested.

But that is what James means, when read in context.
Besides, you know Catholics can do just as good an exegetical dance around Romans. I mean, you act like we have never heard these arguments before and read the Bible.

The fact is---anyone can make the Bible essentially teach whatever it is they want it to teach if they apply enough "exegesis" to it.

But that IS what the Bible does teach: "He saved us, NOT on the basis of works we have done in righteousness, but on account of His mercy..."
In my mind, the simplest solution is the one to be preferred. Paul emphasizes Faith against those who think works alone are saving. James emphasis Faith against those who think all they need is Faith. Easy peasy...

But all we do need is salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord. Even faith is "the gift of God". Then works of love flow from that born-again heart.

Easy-peasy.

The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it.
Or is it your interpretation that you believe?
 
Did you, like, not read my whole post?

Don't waste your time or my time with your nonsensical exegetical dances that attempt to rewrite James so he says what you want him to say. Why can't you just let Paul and James speak for themselves--without the need for fancy exegesis?

"Not saved by Faith alone" means "Not saved by Faith alone." There is no contradiction between James and Romans--as they are writing to two different communities, each with their own problems.
Again such disrespectful dialogue from you. Of course people read your posts, your are not unable to be understood. You do the eisegesis games and then get upset because no one just jumps and says you are right. They don't because you follow RC false doctrines and they are never right.

Nowhere does scripture support saved by works. That contradictions verses like:

eph 2:8+

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We have seen how RCs like to boast about their works.

gal 2:21

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessl

We have seen from RCs posts how Jesus death was needless.

Rom 8;3
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Rom 9:16

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Man can do nothing, it is all God's work and His mercy.

Of course once saved God changes us.
 
Wow. You can quote Trent. I am so impressed. :rolleyes:

Bonnie, anyone can quote stuff. Quoting stuff doesn't mean you understand it.

Now my question: with WHAT do you think the Christian is meriting salvation if not Grace, in the mind of Trent? Grace perfects Grace. What the good works do is increase our capacity for Grace. That is what Trent is talking about. The Grace is there. It is just that the more our Faith works in love, the greater our capacity for God to continue to pour His life into our souls.
You don't get it. We cannot merit grace or salvation. Ever. Both are the gifts of God. Only Jesus merited salvation for us, on the cross.

But there is something else one of your popes taught--that it is necessary for every human creature to be subject to the pope, to be saved....right? Have you forgotten?
 
Wow. You can quote Trent. I am so impressed. :rolleyes:

Bonnie, anyone can quote stuff. Quoting stuff doesn't mean you understand it.

Now my question: with WHAT do you think the Christian is meriting salvation if not Grace, in the mind of Trent? Grace perfects Grace. What the good works do is increase our capacity for Grace. That is what Trent is talking about. The Grace is there. It is just that the more our Faith works in love, the greater our capacity for God to continue to pour His life into our souls.
Yep you are a prime example of anyone an quote stuff and not understanding it.

Boy you are so rude. Downgrading the intelligence of others once again. You are a perfect example of RCs not understand God's love for others.
 
Did you, like, not read my whole post?

Well, like, yes I did.
Don't waste your time or my time with your nonsensical exegetical dances that attempt to rewrite James so he says what you want him to say.

I'm not the one that has Scripture contradicting itself...YOU are with your eisegesis of James.
Why can't you just let Paul and James speak for themselves--without the need for fancy exegesis?

They do....too bad you can't understand them.
"Not saved by Faith alone" means "Not saved by Faith alone."

What, OTHER THAN FAITH, saves, since we KNOW it isn't works....

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began...

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit...
There is no contradiction between James and Romans--as they are writing to two different communities, each with their own problems.

James and Romans aren't the only two books in the bible....you have scripture contradicting itself all over the place as shown above.

So what, OTHER THAN FAITH, saves, since Scripture is clear it isn't' works?
 
catholicism is a very legalistic religion (man made).
Yes, it truly is! I have been reading about Paul, after he received Christ. He was tireless in sharing the saving message of Jesus with his fellow Jews. He truly lamented over their lost condition knowing that they trusted a religious system that could never save them - just like Roman Catholicism! Like the Jews, what Roman Catholics want - in order to be right with God - could not be achieved by human effort. Paul says so in Romans 10:1-3.....
"My heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own [righteousness], they did not submit to God's righteousness."
 
You don't get it. We cannot merit grace or salvation. Ever. Both are the gifts of God. Only Jesus merited salvation for us, on the cross.
What happens when the merits of Christ become ours when we are justified? I mean--what----does God separate out our Faith from our works? In other words--since it is the person who believes, and the person whose Faith is working in love, I just don't see how once justified, our works and Faith are divorced. When God sees our works, He sees Christ, and is pleased because it is one and the same Christ who is producing those works through our Faith.
But there is something else one of your popes taught--that it is necessary for every human creature to be subject to the pope, to be saved....right? Have you forgotten?
No, that remains true. That was Boniface VIII (I believe) who said that. If you understood things like context, you would know that what Boniface is getting at is that it is the pope, not the emperor that is the spiritual head of the Church.

I mean--I am sure you can agree--we don't want someone like Joe Biden running the Church. Of course----Pope Francis isn't much better, the two of them are very best excellent friends---so congrads--on that point, you got me.

Either way---the issue was a clash between the extent of the authority of the Church vs. the state. At the time Boniface wrote, there was no modern concept of a "separation of Church and state." Church and state were intertwined. The roles of each were not clearly delineated. Bishops took on secular roles and secular authority while civil officials took on spiritual roles and authority. Boniface was attempting to delineate final authority on spiritual matters as opposed to secular matters rests with the pope. THAT teaching is still very much in place.
 
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What happens when the merits of Christ become ours when we are justified?

We are saved.
I mean--what----does God separate out our Faith from our works? In other words--since it is the person who believes, and the person whose Faith is working in love, I just don't see how once justified, our works and Faith are divorced.

I never said they were divorced. Who on here ever said that? But just because good works flow from faith does not mean they function the same in salvation.
When God sees our works, He sees Christ, and is pleased because it is one and the same Christ who is producing those works through our Faith.

Which comes first--faith or good works?
No, that remains true. That was Boniface VIII (I believe) who said that. If you understood things like context, you would know that what Boniface is getting at is that it is the pope, not the emperor that is the spiritual head of the Church.
Boniface said it was necessary for salvation for EVERY human creature to be subject to the pope--not just the Emperor. That is more than just merely asserting that Boniface is the spiritual head of the church.

Soooo, in Catholicism, one is saved by grace through faith in Jesus AND by being subject to the pope!
I mean--I am sure you can agree--we don't want someone like Joe Biden running the Church. Of course----Pope Francis isn't much better, the two of them are very best excellent friends---so congrads--on that point, you got me.

:)
Either way---the issue was a clash between the extent of the authority of the Church vs. the state. At the time Boniface wrote, there was no modern concept of a "separation of Church and state." Church and state were intertwined. The roles of each were not clearly delineated. Bishops took on secular roles and secular authority while civil officials took on spiritual roles and authority. Boniface was attempting to delineate final authority on spiritual matters as opposed to secular matters rests with the pope. THAT teaching is still very much in place.
He still declared being subject to the pope was necessary for salvation. Soooo, I guess we Protestants, who reject the pope and won't obey him are DOOMED to hell--eh?

But then, your supposed first pope, Peter, said that it is better to obey God than man. So, we do. :)
 
Fundamentalist maybe under the 10 commandments, but Paul teaches us that Christ abolished the law....
So... what do you do with the lovely commandment God gave Moses about making no graven images, etc.? You will find it in Deuteronomy 5.


'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(Deuteronomy 5:6-10 NKJV)

This isn't a "fundamentalist" thing. This is a "God thing".
 
So... what do you do with the lovely commandment God gave Moses about making no graven images, etc.? You will find it in Deuteronomy 5.


'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(Deuteronomy 5:6-10 NKJV)

This isn't a "fundamentalist" thing. This is a "God thing".
Yes, I memorized Deuteronomy chapters 5 through 8 years ago. We only have one God and we don't worship idols. God is putting his nt laws in our minds and writing them on our hearts.
 
Yes, I memorized Deuteronomy chapters 5 through 8 years ago. We only have one God and we don't worship idols. God is putting his nt laws in our minds and writing them on our hearts.
And you totally ignored the question regarding verse 8 which I bolded so you could focus. Here it is again:

You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.


Is that commandment to be ignored?
 
So... what do you do with the lovely commandment God gave Moses about making no graven images, etc.? You will find it in Deuteronomy 5.


'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(Deuteronomy 5:6-10 NKJV)

This isn't a "fundamentalist" thing. This is a "God thing".
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
==========================================

Posters;
how do they serve them. these idols of wood, stone, precious metals, etc. etc. etc. ???????????
they can not hear, speak, move, all they are is
well, dead weight, so;
how do they serve them. these idols

They have to have men or Woman speak for them;
so thou shall not bow down to them nor serve these
voices
that speak for all these Idols
 
And you totally ignored the question regarding verse 8 which I bolded so you could focus. Here it is again:

You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.


Is that commandment to be ignored?
That is the oc law. We are not under the oc law we are under the NC law. Even if we still were under the oc law we are not in violation of it.
 
Did he?

So we’re free to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, ect?

BTW you are biblically ignorant. Christ did not abolish the law, He fulfilled it…

Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
And according to dingoling, we can serve and worship all the false gods we want, defraud our neighbor, ignore the LORD God himself and basically pagan Christians.....which is what too many Catholic and non-Catholic "christians" are. Baptized pagans comes to mind.
 
So... what do you do with the lovely commandment God gave Moses about making no graven images, etc.? You will find it in Deuteronomy 5.


'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(Deuteronomy 5:6-10 NKJV)

This isn't a "fundamentalist" thing. This is a "God thing".
Does that go for pictures of your loved ones? A painting of your loved ones? I guess statues of our Founding Fathers is out too. 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
 
So... what do you do with the lovely commandment God gave Moses about making no graven images, etc.? You will find it in Deuteronomy 5.


'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(Deuteronomy 5:6-10 NKJV)

This isn't a "fundamentalist" thing. This is a "God thing".

That is the oc law. We are not under the oc law we are under the NC law. Even if we still were under the oc law we are not in violation of it.
Paul says that Christ abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances.
I don't think Paul got that memo
Paul also had this to say

Gal.5:219​
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​
1Cor.6:9​
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

Rev.22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers,
and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 
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