Did Jesus really fulfill all of the laws???

Open Heart said:
Going by your own gospels, the Jews killed no one -- it was Pilate, the Roman prelate, that had the authority to execute Jesus. Washing hands or not, he is responsible, as a representative for the Roman empire.
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Wrong... They were just as guilty as the Romans... At a minimum, they were accessories... Your desire to exonerate a group of people judged by YHWH at the hands of the Romans is amazing...
 
Jewjitzu said:
Then you can't count on him alone for righteousness, oh padawan.
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Oh! But I can... He lived a sinless innocent life... My sins were imputed to him... His righteousness was imputed to me...

Where you fall is the assumption that Jesus had to do everything you think he had to do... If he actually did everything as you describe, you would move the goal posts... That is how unbelief works...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Oh! But I can...
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No. That's the point of this thread. His parents fulfilled at least 3 commandments for him. So, he relies on them for their righteousness, as you should too, right?

Yodas_Prodigy said:
He lived a sinless innocent life...
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Even Isaiah 53 doesn't teach that as the servant is counted with the sinners, v12. Not only that, but the specific sacrifice talked about there is an asham, v10, only for unknown sins, not all sins.

BTW, God doesn't have sins nor takes them on Himself. That's an impossibility, Deut 32:6.

The Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice; A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is He.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
My sins were imputed to him... His righteousness was imputed to me...
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Ironically, Jesus never taught what you're saying. Either way, he's counting on his parents righteousness for perfection.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Where you fall is the assumption that Jesus had to do everything you think he had to do... If he actually did everything as you describe, you would move the goal posts... That is how unbelief works...
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No, if he's perfect in the law as you claim, then he would fulfill all of the law himself. But, he didn't in at least these 3 commandments.
 
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Yodas_Prodigy said:
Wrong... They were just as guilty as the Romans... At a minimum, they were accessories... Your desire to exonerate a group of people judged by YHWH at the hands of the Romans is amazing...
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Your desire to blame the Jews for the Roman execution of Jesus is just downright anti-semitic.
 
Jewjitzu said:
No. That's the point of this thread. His parents fulfilled at least 3 commandments for him. So, he relies on them for their righteousness, as you should too, right?
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Jewjitzu said:
I don't believe I ever said that Jesus fulfilled all laws. In fact, I argued that he didn't. He couldn't fulfill those for women, etc...

Even Isaiah 53 doesn't teach that as the servant is counted with the sinners, v12.
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Being counted with the sinners does not make one a sinner. our sins were imputed to the servant. very similar to sins being imputed to the scape goat...

Jewjitzu said:
BTW, God doesn't have sins nor takes them on Himself. That's an impossibility, Deut 32:6.
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He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities... by his wounds, we are healed...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Being counted with the sinners does not make one a sinner. our sins were imputed to the servant. very similar to sins being imputed to the scape goat...
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It does in Isaiah 53. As I mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:4, God doesn't have or take on sins. It's clear God doesn't put sins upon himself in Isaiah 53.

People die ultimately as a result of their sins.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities... by his wounds, we are healed...
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Yep. The remnant Israel has suffered quite a bit.
 
Open Heart said:
You have mistaken a figure of speech for something literal. When we say "I follow the 613 laws" it means that we acknowledge them all, and we keep those which apply to us and are possible to keep. It does NOT mean that we literally obey all 613, including those that do not apply to us. I'm sure that J didn't obey the laws for women or priests. But he still kept the 613, as the figure of speech goes.
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Part of the problem is half of the folks here think like Christians, and the other don't. I know what you meant. ;)

This is the Judaism forum after all, right?
 
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Open Heart said:
Your desire to blame the Jews for the Roman execution of Jesus is just downright anti-semitic.
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Bwah hahahahahahaha!!! Your foolishness amazes me...

If you knew Christianity, you would know that we are all guilty for Him being on the cross... You, me, and everyone else...
Your descendants were especially guilty.... Jesus called them an evil generation. Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple before "this generation" passes away... He was right...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Bwah hahahahahahaha!!! Your foolishness amazes me...

If you knew Christianity, you would know that we are all guilty for Him being on the cross... You, me, and everyone else...
Your descendants were especially guilty.... Jesus called them an evil generation. Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple before "this generation" passes away... He was right...
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If "we are all guilty," then why the constant constant accusation that the Jews killed him?
 
Jewjitzu said:
If "we are all guilty," then why the constant constant accusation that the Jews killed him?
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First, and foremost, that is not the first thing that comes to my mind... I think there are those who masquerade as Christians or immature believers who want to hold someone accountable...

Here are the words of a Jew written about the Jews of his day:

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

But here are Christ's own words too:

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

So, all are true... The Jews of his day killed Jesus. Jesus laid his life down. Our sins caused him to be placed on the cross.

Finally, it was the Father's will that Jesus suffer in our behalf:

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
First, and foremost, that is not the first thing that comes to my mind... I think there are those who masquerade as Christians or immature believers who want to hold someone accountable...
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You're responding to the wrong person.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Here are the words of a Jew written about the Jews of his day:

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
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Well, he got it wrong because Rome crucified him.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
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Peter got this wrong too.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
But here are Christ's own words too:

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
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So, Jesus wanted to die.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
So, all are true... The Jews of his day killed Jesus. Jesus laid his life down. Our sins caused him to be placed on the cross.

Finally, it was the Father's will that Jesus suffer in our behalf:

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
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I don't believe any of this.
 
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