Preterism and the People of God

Iconoclast said:
Hello Rcm,
Consider vs 27.....in the middle of the week...3.5 years
See post64
Click to expand...


Let me try this again, because you are not practicing good grammatical exegesis


Daniel 9:26-27
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

70 A.D. happens and Jerusalem and the Jewish temple is destroyed



27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week,


A covenant is made with Israel for seven years (Please show me where this happened in history? 70 A.D. had nothing to do with any entity having a covenant with Israel!)




but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;


The Jews have to be back in the land, in Jerusalem, with an altar and Temple for their to be Biblical offerings


and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

This is the reference Jesus makes in Matthew 24, regarding the antichrist


This isn't talking about Titus, God didn't destroy Titus

The oldest son of the Emperor Vespasian, Titus was the second to reign in the Flavian dynasty. But before he became emperor, Titus was an acclaimed war leader of Rome, who was charged by the reigning emperor with the task of ending the Jews’ rebellion against Roman rule. When Titus conquered and destroyed Jerusalem, he was putting an end to many decades of rebellion that had erupted long before his time.

Destruction of the Second Temple​

Titus’ army broke through the walls of Jerusalem after a long siege, during which the food and water supplies to the city were cut off. According to Josephus, when Titus entered the city, his army killed 1,100,000 people within the city, most of whom were Jews; nearly 100,000 more were captured and enslaved, their image forever carved into the bas relief of Titus’ Arch.

There is controversy as to whether Titus intended to destroy the Temple. Josephus claims that the destruction of the Temple of was initiated when a Roman soldier threw a torch inside its walls, kindling a blaze. Other historical sources believe that Titus had intended all along to destroy the Temple.

Titus was crowned emperor of Rome in 79 A.D., less than a decade after his triumph in Jerusalem. Among his achievements as emperor was the completion of the famous Colosseum, which some historians believe was built by Jewish slaves.



RCM
 
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Iconoclast said:
Hello CC,
I was taught the opposite at first.
Look what takes place;
Finish the transgression
Makes an end of sins,
Make reconciliation for iniquity.
Bring in everlasting righteousness,
Seal up the vision and prophecy,
Anoint the most Holy

Do you think the antichrist brings in everlasting righteousness?
Click to expand...

Why would you ask such a question concerning the antichrist in relation to Daniel 9:24?



The following is from Warren Wiersbe's commentary on Daniel,

The seventy "weeks" (Dan. 9:24). The word "weeks" means "sevens," so Gabriel was speaking about seventy periods of 7 years, or 490 years. Keep in mind that these years relate specifically to Daniel's people, the Jews, and their holy city, Jerusalem. In his prayer, Daniel's great concern was that his people be forgiven their sins against the Lord, the city be rebuilt, and the temple be restored (v. 16); and these are the matters that Gabriel will discuss. To apply this important prophecy to any other people or place is to rob it of its intended meaning.


Gabriel explained that during those 490 years, the Lord would accomplish six specific purposes for the Jewish people. The first three have to do with sin and the last three with righteousness. The Lord would "finish the transgression," that is, the transgression of the Jewish people, and "make an end of" Israel's national sins. This was one of the main burdens of Daniel's prayer. Israel was a scattered suffering nation because she was a sinful nation. How would the Lord accomplish this? By making "reconciliation for iniquity," that is, by offering a sacrifice that would atone for their sin. Here we come to the cross of Jesus Christ, Israel's Messiah.


When Jesus died on the cross, He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; John 1:29), and therefore we can proclaim the good news of the Gospel to sinners everywhere. But He also died for the church (Eph. 5:25) and for the people of Israel. "For the transgression of my people was he stricken" (Isa. 53:8). Jesus died for sinners in every tribe and nation (Rev. 5:9; 7:9), but in a very special way, He died for His own people, the Jewish nation (John 11:44-52).


The last three divine purposes focus on righteousness and the future kingdom of Messiah. When Jesus returns, He will establish His righteous kingdom (Jer. 23:5-6; 31:31-34) and rule in righteousness (Isa. 4:2-6). In that day, the Old Testament prophecies of Israel's glorious kingdom will be fulfilled, and there will be no need for visions or prophets. "To anoint the most holy" refers to the sanctifying of the future temple that is described in Ezekiel 40-48.

You would do well to read and study what is bolded. 'To anoint the most holy and the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48 completely refutes any Preterist beliefs. Preterists have to rip Ezekiel 40-48 out of their Bibles, because they can't deal with it


These six purposes declare the answers to Daniel's prayer! Ultimately, Israel's sins will be forgiven (Zech. 12:10-13:1), the city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and the temple and its ministry will be restored, all because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross. All of these wonderful accomplishments will be fulfilled during the 490 years that Gabriel goes on to explain. He divides the seven sevens—490 years—into three significant periods: 49 years, 434 years and 7 years.


RCM
 
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Yodas_Prodigy said:
sounds like the Passion of Christ to me...
Click to expand...

How in the world can you put the Passion of Christ in the middle of the 70th week, when the text is explicit in stating that the 70th week follows after Messiah has been cut off?

You cannot violate Biblical grammatical structure, that is what cults do!


RCM
 
RCM said:
I believe what God has written

I believe in OT Biblical Prophecy

Jesus is the Word of God,

Revelation 19:10, "Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

RCM
Click to expand...

That's appreciated... But it looks like you are punting... Why is a memorial sacrifice needed when Christ is walking in our midst? Why is a sacrifice for sin needed after Christ died on the cross?
 
RCM said:
I didn't say there was a separation within the first 69 weeks

I gave you an example in Daniel 11 where there is a considerable separation, which can be compared to the separation between Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 9:27, which is a separation between the 69th and 70th weeks

RCM
Click to expand...

Using your exegetical skills, there could be a break, "There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;" right? [Insert denial here]
 
RCM said:
What does that have to do with anything???

I made reference to the replica Temple in Sao Paulo Brazil to give you an idea of how quick Israel will construct a temple whenever circumstances allow them to do so. They already have all of the temple furnishings and the Levitical priests in place and waiting

RCM
Click to expand...

I am very aware of what the Jews are doing for their future Temple...

Unless the Temple is made with the same stones as were used with the original temple, it won't fulfill your understanding of scripture... Here, take a look

Matthew
2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Mark
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
 
RCM said:
How in the world can you put the Passion of Christ in the middle of the 70th week, when the text is explicit in stating that the 70th week follows after Messiah has been cut off?

You cannot violate Biblical grammatical structure, that is what cults do!


RCM
Click to expand...

There is debate on this very issue...

This is how I will end this part of the discussion. Ancient Israel's destruction is directly related to the 70 Weeks of Daniel... A future fulfillment of week 70 is needed only by the Dispensational Theologian... You like to throw insults like Replacement Theology, cults, poor exegesis etc... Yes, you never dealt with a majority of my points. Sure a couple weren't the best. A vast a majority were good and ignored so you could lay out the template of dispensationalism... Dispensationalism is a 200 hundred year old mistake that elevates the Jewish Nation far above where God has them.

Not all of Israel is Israel.
God made the Jew and the Gentile in to one man. Breaking down the dividing line.
God made the Gentile a part of the Commonwealth of Israel.
God brought Gentiles into a covenant relationship.
God grafted gentiles in to his people.
The Elders in Acts saw the Gentiles becoming believers as fulfillment of David's Tabernacle being restored
When Paul spoke of the Israel of God in Galatians, he already established within Galatians a Spiritual Jerusalem and a Spiritual (Saved) Israel

The Temple was destroyed signifying the complete end of the Jewish system. Jerusalem was destroyed, laying waste to a bankrupt people...

I have much more to say... I will end with this, all believers are Israelites. We are one people of God. It is dispensationalism that wants to separate by slicing and dicing God's people in to groups... God kept his promises to National Israel... Any promises not completed were due to their faithlessness...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
That's appreciated... But it looks like you are punting... Why is a memorial sacrifice needed when Christ is walking in our midst? Why is a sacrifice for sin needed after Christ died on the cross?
Click to expand...

Daniel 9:24 is tied to Ezekiel 40-48

And it is something you have overlooked because of a faulty eschatology


RCM
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
I am very aware of what the Jews are doing for their future Temple...

Unless the Temple is made with the same stones as were used with the original temple, it won't fulfill your understanding of scripture... Here, take a look

Matthew
2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Mark
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Click to expand...

What a nonsensical statement

Was Herod's temple built with the same stones as Solomon's temple?

What makes the Temple Holy?

I didn't say the temple the Jews will build here shortly will be holy, it won't be!

But, the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48 will be Holy because Jesus will 'Anoint the most Holy Place' (Daniel 9:24)


RCM
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
There is debate on this very issue...

This is how I will end this part of the discussion. Ancient Israel's destruction is directly related to the 70 Weeks of Daniel... A future fulfillment of week 70 is needed only by the Dispensational Theologian...
Click to expand...

A future fulfillment is needed so that your Biblical Theology is consistent and not contradictory

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Yes, you never dealt with a majority of my points.
Click to expand...

Tell me what points of yours I didn't address that are critical issues of the debate

I am not throwing insults around, 'Replacement Theology' is a term used frequently in the discussions on this topic

You were not using good grammatical exegesis

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Sure a couple weren't the best. A vast a majority were good and ignored so you could lay out the template of dispensationalism... Dispensationalism is a 200 hundred year old mistake that elevates the Jewish Nation far above where God has them.
Click to expand...

Zechariah 2, Israel is the apple of God's eye

Paul always stated, to the Jew first and then to the Gentile

If you don't think the Jewish people are not very special to God, be careful, (Romans 11:18)

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Not all of Israel is Israel.
Click to expand...
This is saying that all of the descendants of Jacob do not have the faith of Jacob

Yodas_Prodigy said:
God made the Jew and the Gentile in to one man. Breaking down the dividing line.
Click to expand...
All people of Faith are part of God's household (Galatians 6:10; Ephesians 2:19)

Yodas_Prodigy said:
God made the Gentile a part of the Commonwealth of Israel.
Click to expand...

This is a false statement. In Ephesians 2, it states Gentiles were excluded or alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, then it says we were brought near and are part of God's household, verse 19 (The People of God) It never says Gentiles become part of Israel, you are reading that into the text

The Scriptures never say that Gentiles and the Church are Israel

I already explained in depth to you that Paul's definition of Israel in Romans 9-11 defines Israel as 'Ethnic Israel' period!
Yodas_Prodigy said:
God brought Gentiles into a covenant relationship.
Click to expand...

Agree,

Yodas_Prodigy said:
God grafted gentiles in to his people.
Click to expand...
I agree Gentiles are grafted in

Romans 11:17-18
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

But, Paul's use of Israel in Romans 9-11 has already been proven to be Ethnic Israel, so in what way are they grafted in?


Your theology has to be consistent, you cannot have contradiction!


Yodas_Prodigy said:
The Elders in Acts saw the Gentiles becoming believers as fulfillment of David's Tabernacle being restored
Click to expand...

No they did not see the Gentiles becoming believers as fulfillment of David's Tabernacle being restored


Acts 15:13-18
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Isaiah 49)
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,
17 SO that the rest of MANKIND may seek the LORD, AND ALL the GENTILES WHO are called by MY NAME,'
18 SAYS the LORD, WHO MAKES these things known from long ago.


James stated that the prophets also agreed with this conclusion, and he cited Amos 9:11-12 to prove his point. Note that he did not state that what Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had said was a fulfillment of this prophecy. He said that what Amos wrote agreed with their testimony. A careful reading of Amos 9:8-15 reveals that the prophet is describing events in the end times, when God will regather His people Israel to their land and bless them abundantly. If we "spiritualize" these promises, we rob them of their plain meaning and James' argument falls apart.


Amos also prophesied that the fallen house ("tent") of David would be raised up and God would fulfill His covenant with David that a king would sit on his throne (see 2 Sam. 7:25-29). This future King, of course, will be Jesus Christ, the Son of David (2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Isa. 9:6-7; Luke 1:32) who will reign over Israel during the millennial kingdom!


The rebuilding of David's Tabernacle has not yet taken place,

You need to see how Hosea 3, Daniel 9, Amos 9, and Ezekiel 40-48 all correlate and are yet future

Yodas_Prodigy said:
When Paul spoke of the Israel of God in Galatians, he already established within Galatians a Spiritual Jerusalem and a Spiritual (Saved) Israel
Click to expand...

You are forcing a square peg into a round hole

Galatians 6:10-16
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, (This is the Church)


and (This conjunction connects the two groups of the household of faith)

upon the Israel of God (This is the Remnant of Israel - See Romans 9-11)




Yodas_Prodigy said:
The Temple was destroyed signifying the complete end of the Jewish system. Jerusalem was destroyed, laying waste to a bankrupt people...
Click to expand...

So, you are saying all of God's promises to ethnic Israel (Jacob) in the Old Testament will not be literally fulfilled?

All of the prophecy concerning the coming of Jesus was literally fulfilled

Jesus gave us the model for literally interpreting prophecy in Luke 4:20


Yodas_Prodigy said:
I have much more to say... I will end with this, all believers are Israelites.
Click to expand...

This is Replacement Theology, the Church claims to be Israel

You have no Biblical Scripture to support this, when you run out of Biblical Scripture, you run out of authority

Paul's words in Romans 9-11 completely refute Replacement Theology


Yodas_Prodigy said:
We are one people of God.
Click to expand...

Agreed, the Church and Israel are 'One People of God' ' One Household'

Israel is Jacob, as I have shown you from Scripture

The Church is not Jacob



RCM
 
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RCM said:
What a nonsensical statement

Was Herod's temple built with the same stones as Solomon's temple?

What makes the Temple Holy?

I didn't say the temple the Jews will build here shortly will be holy, it won't be!

But, the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48 will be Holy because Jesus will 'Anoint the most Holy Place' (Daniel 9:24)


RCM
Click to expand...

Nope... These stones...
 
RCM said:
A future fulfillment is needed so that your Biblical Theology is consistent and not contradictory



Tell me what points of yours I didn't address that are critical issues of the debate

I am not throwing insults around, 'Replacement Theology' is a term used frequently in the discussions on this topic

You were not using good grammatical exegesis



Zechariah 2, Israel is the apple of God's eye

Paul always stated, to the Jew first and then to the Gentile

If you don't think the Jewish people are not very special to God, be careful, (Romans 11:18)


This is saying that all of the descendants of Jacob do not have the faith of Jacob


All people of Faith are part of God's household (Galatians 6:10; Ephesians 2:19)



This is a false statement. In Ephesians 2, it states Gentiles were excluded or alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, then it says we were brought near and are part of God's household, verse 19 (The People of God) It never says Gentiles become part of Israel, you are reading that into the text

The Scriptures never say that Gentiles and the Church are Israel

I already explained in depth to you that Paul's definition of Israel in Romans 9-11 defines Israel as 'Ethnic Israel' period!


Agree,


I agree Gentiles are grafted in

Romans 11:17-18
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

But, Paul's use of Israel in Romans 9-11 has already been proven to be Ethnic Israel, so in what way are they grafted in?


Your theology has to be consistent, you cannot have contradiction!




No they did not see the Gentiles becoming believers as fulfillment of David's Tabernacle being restored


Acts 15:13-18
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Isaiah 49)
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,
17 SO that the rest of MANKIND may seek the LORD, AND ALL the GENTILES WHO are called by MY NAME,'
18 SAYS the LORD, WHO MAKES these things known from long ago.


James stated that the prophets also agreed with this conclusion, and he cited Amos 9:11-12 to prove his point. Note that he did not state that what Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had said was a fulfillment of this prophecy. He said that what Amos wrote agreed with their testimony. A careful reading of Amos 9:8-15 reveals that the prophet is describing events in the end times, when God will regather His people Israel to their land and bless them abundantly. If we "spiritualize" these promises, we rob them of their plain meaning and James' argument falls apart.


Amos also prophesied that the fallen house ("tent") of David would be raised up and God would fulfill His covenant with David that a king would sit on his throne (see 2 Sam. 7:25-29). This future King, of course, will be Jesus Christ, the Son of David (2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Isa. 9:6-7; Luke 1:32) who will reign over Israel during the millennial kingdom!


The rebuilding of David's Tabernacle has not yet taken place,

You need to see how Hosea 3, Daniel 9, Amos 9, and Ezekiel 40-48 all correlate and are yet future



You are forcing a square peg into a round hole

Galatians 6:10-16
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, (This is the Church)


and (This conjunction connects the two groups of the household of faith)

upon the Israel of God (This is the Remnant of Israel - See Romans 9-11)






So, you are saying all of God's promises to ethnic Israel (Jacob) in the Old Testament will not be literally fulfilled?

All of the prophecy concerning the coming of Jesus was literally fulfilled

Jesus gave us the model for literally interpreting prophecy in Luke 4:20




This is Replacement Theology, the Church claims to be Israel

You have no Biblical Scripture to support this, when you run out of Biblical Scripture, you run out of authority

Paul's words in Romans 9-11 completely refute Replacement Theology




Agreed, the Church and Israel are 'One People of God' ' One Household'

Israel is Jacob, as I have shown you from Scripture

The Church is not Jacob



RCM
Click to expand...

TYFYT's
 
RCM said:
Why would you ask such a question concerning the antichrist in relation to Daniel 9:24?



The following is from Warren Wiersbe's commentary on Daniel,

The seventy "weeks" (Dan. 9:24). The word "weeks" means "sevens," so Gabriel was speaking about seventy periods of 7 years, or 490 years. Keep in mind that these years relate specifically to Daniel's people, the Jews, and their holy city, Jerusalem. In his prayer, Daniel's great concern was that his people be forgiven their sins against the Lord, the city be rebuilt, and the temple be restored (v. 16); and these are the matters that Gabriel will discuss. To apply this important prophecy to any other people or place is to rob it of its intended meaning.


Gabriel explained that during those 490 years, the Lord would accomplish six specific purposes for the Jewish people. The first three have to do with sin and the last three with righteousness. The Lord would "finish the transgression," that is, the transgression of the Jewish people, and "make an end of" Israel's national sins. This was one of the main burdens of Daniel's prayer. Israel was a scattered suffering nation because she was a sinful nation. How would the Lord accomplish this? By making "reconciliation for iniquity," that is, by offering a sacrifice that would atone for their sin. Here we come to the cross of Jesus Christ, Israel's Messiah.


When Jesus died on the cross, He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; John 1:29), and therefore we can proclaim the good news of the Gospel to sinners everywhere. But He also died for the church (Eph. 5:25) and for the people of Israel. "For the transgression of my people was he stricken" (Isa. 53:8). Jesus died for sinners in every tribe and nation (Rev. 5:9; 7:9), but in a very special way, He died for His own people, the Jewish nation (John 11:44-52).


The last three divine purposes focus on righteousness and the future kingdom of Messiah. When Jesus returns, He will establish His righteous kingdom (Jer. 23:5-6; 31:31-34) and rule in righteousness (Isa. 4:2-6). In that day, the Old Testament prophecies of Israel's glorious kingdom will be fulfilled, and there will be no need for visions or prophets. "To anoint the most holy" refers to the sanctifying of the future temple that is described in Ezekiel 40-48.

You would do well to read and study what is bolded. 'To anoint the most holy and the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48 completely refutes any Preterist beliefs. Preterists have to rip Ezekiel 40-48 out of their Bibles, because they can't deal with it


These six purposes declare the answers to Daniel's prayer! Ultimately, Israel's sins will be forgiven (Zech. 12:10-13:1), the city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and the temple and its ministry will be restored, all because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross. All of these wonderful accomplishments will be fulfilled during the 490 years that Gabriel goes on to explain. He divides the seven sevens—490 years—into three significant periods: 49 years, 434 years and 7 years.


RCM
Click to expand...
I like Warren weirsbe....but Jesushas already inaugurated the Kingdom.
The Apostles were preaching the gospel of th he Kingdom.
 
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