John Milton
Well-known member
That's funny. I've become so accustomed to him doing it that I didn't even notice it.I think you need to get this idea of the Trinitarian boogieman out of your head.
That's funny. I've become so accustomed to him doing it that I didn't even notice it.I think you need to get this idea of the Trinitarian boogieman out of your head.
That much is untrue. The article before θεὸς always denotes the person of the Father when referring to what is in heaven, unless intentionally used of a false god.θεὸς in John 1:1 is a typical predicate nominative. The article has nothing to do with whether the Father is being referred to or the Son--that is determined by the context and construction.
I have never denied that anarthrous θεὸς cannot denote the Father. Strawman. It always denotes the Father in some aspect. It may be an impersonal reference to the Father: it may be a reference to his properties, or his work. Eg, Jn 1:18,Since word order in Greek is flexible, the article in an equative construction denotes the subject, and the noun which lacks the article is a predicate.
θεὸς (in its various cases) is also anarthrous in John 1:6, 1:12, 1:13, 1:18, and many other places where the Father is being spoken of. It is clear that you don't have a meaningful grasp on the language--so why are you commenting on it?
Meaningless.You're only going to lead those astray on the Greek who haven't learned it themselves. And you're doing yourself a disservice by allowing theology to drive your study of the language.
It is plain that the failure to acknowledge o θεὸς as the person of the Father is the root cause of Trinitarianism.I think you need to get this idea of the Trinitarian boogieman out of your head. It's keeping you from forming rational arguments, you're just butchering the Greek more and more as you are confuted. Integrity and honesty are important. It's becoming meaningless to converse with you because you are only interested in dogmatism.
What I said was absolutely true, and this is a very disingenuous comment. Whether you receive it or not, τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ very much is Christ being referred to as "the great God," which corresponds with the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 (אֵל גִּבּוֹר). As is Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεός εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, "Your throne, O God, is forever," where it is employed in a nominative of address. Also in 2 Peter 1:1 τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, "Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." It's not just me saying this, it's how the Greeks read and commented on these passages going back to the earliest record.That much is untrue. The article before θεὸς always denotes the person of the Father when referring to what is in heaven, unless intentionally used of a false god.
You're again placing a theological meaning on the usage or absence of an article, which is a bad practice.I have never denied that anarthrous θεὸς cannot denote the Father. Strawman. It always denotes the Father in some aspect. It may be an impersonal reference to the Father: it may be a reference to his properties, or his work. Eg, Jn 1:18,
The point is that the anarthrous θεὸς need not be a reference to the God of Israel in the GNT, and within the closed circuit context of John 1;1a,b and c the apostle deliberately refrains from using the article when saying the Logos is "god." By the way, is θεὸς in John 1:1c definite, or indefinite or purely qualitative ?θεὸς in John 1:1 is a typical predicate nominative. The article has nothing to do with whether the Father is being referred to or the Son--that is determined by the context and construction. Since word order in Greek is flexible, the article in an equative construction denotes the subject, and the noun which lacks the article is a predicate.
θεὸς (in its various cases) is also anarthrous in John 1:6, 1:12, 1:13, 1:18, and many other places where the Father is being spoken of. It is clear that you don't have a meaningful grasp on the language--so why are you commenting on it? You're only going to lead those astray on the Greek who haven't learned it themselves. And you're doing yourself a disservice by allowing theology to drive your study of the language.
I think you need to get this idea of the Trinitarian boogieman out of your head. It's keeping you from forming rational arguments, you're just butchering the Greek more and more as you are confuted. Integrity and honesty are important. It's becoming meaningless to converse with you because you are only interested in dogmatism.
The difference between the Holy Spirit and your analogy of Paul's spirit is that the Holy Spirit goes out from God, even to the jurisdiction of the earth. Therefore it can be personalized independently of God.That's like saying the spirit of apostle Paul is apostle Paul. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God , not God. In other words, the Holy Spirit is not a distinct person from God anymore than the spirit of apostle Paul is a distinct person from the apostle Paul. Not sur how you could be unclear on these things.
What do you think that means ?The difference between the Holy Spirit and your analogy of Paul's spirit is that the Holy Spirit goes out from God, even to the jurisdiction of the earth. Therefore it can be personalized independently of God.
Yep, and an inevitable descent into polytheism.It is plain that the failure to acknowledge o θεὸς as the person of the Father is the root cause of Trinitarianism.
NotWhat I said was absolutely true, and this is a very disingenuous comment. Whether you receive it or not, τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ very much is Christ being referred to as "the great God,"
God the Warrior = God in action. I'm not denying God was in Christ.which corresponds with the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 (אֵל גִּבּוֹר).
No article in the Hebew says it allAs is Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεός εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, "Your throne, O God, is forever," where it is employed in a nominative of address.
τοῦ θεοῦ is a title of the Father and so not subject to Sharp's rule.Also in 2 Peter 1:1 τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, "Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." It's not just me saying this, it's how the Greeks read and commented on these passages going back to the earliest record.
I am indeed placing a theological meaning on the usage or absence of an article, because the Greek grammar so dictates and scripture so dictates in passages such as Gen 46:3 and in numerous other places. It is you who are ignoring Greek and Hebrew article usage. Gen 46:3 could have been written εγώ ειμι θεός, but the article was inserted for a reason. It's also in the Hebrew. Gen 46:3 gives rises to Jn 1:1b.You're again placing a theological meaning on the usage or absence of an article, which is a bad practice.
I see the Holy Spirit as manifesting itself in earth's jurisdiction: hence it is given personality by Jesus. That's all I know:What do you think that means ?
Biblical words must be given biblical definitions : the spirit of any individual X is never another individual. Example: the spirit of apostle Paul.I see the Holy Spirit as manifesting itself in earth's jurisdiction: hence it is given personality by Jesus. That's all I know:
Jhn 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit
Rev 5:6
The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Jhn 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Jhn 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
Did I suggest that the Holy Spirit was "another" individual other that God?Biblical words must be given biblical definitions : the spirit of any individual X is never another individual. Example: the spirit of apostle Paul.
By sitting on your high and mighty pontifical throne sneering at everything I say, you only show that you haven't a clue. In fact I'm getting the impression it's just a waste of time talking to you.That's right keep raising the stakes. How dumb can your assertions get?
Why would Trinitarians make a case for o θεός being used exclusively for the Father's person? The whole revolutionary ethos of Trinitarianism is to oppose this idea.Name these other scholars who think that o θεός is used exclusively for God.
It doesn’t matter, the spirit of individual X is never an individual ( the same, or another) according to the scriptural definition, anymore than apostle Paul’s spirit is the same individual as apostle Paul. Come to think of it, how would that even make logical sense ?Did I suggest that the Holy Spirit was "another" individual other that God?
The apostles and Jesus suggest not, cf. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
I suggested only that the Holy Spirit has personality when it comes out of God. Anything "sent" from God must have personality, because everything of God is invested with life. As God gives life, so that which comes from God must have life.
Rev 11:11 πνεῦμα ζωῆς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ
Yes, but that's only because you don't realize that you are the wall that is being spoken to.In fact I'm getting the impression it's just a waste of time talking to you.
They wouldn't because it is clearly not used exclusively for the Father. This FACT is why they generally don't, though like the composition of any group I am sure you could find an exception.Why would Trinitarians make a case for o θεός being used exclusively for the Father's person? The whole revolutionary ethos of Trinitarianism is to oppose this idea.
No. It is proof that ὁ θεός (you have erroneously capitalized θ again) can be used as a reference to the Father. One exception to this disproves your assertion that "ὁ θεός [is] used exclusively for the Father's person, and you have been given several.κεφαλὴ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὁ Θεός is the Pauline proof, if any were needed, that ὁ Θεός != ὁ Χριστὸς.
And Paul uses a ὁ θεός in a way where the Father isn't intended thus disproving your assertion.Paul is the authority whom no Trinitarian scholar can oppose.
One can argue any stupid assertion they wish, it doesn't make it true or even likely. This is an area (underlined) in which you are an expert.Within the Jewish cultural setting, one could easily argue that anarthrous θεός was considered monadic and therefore definite even without the article.
This exclusively your argument. You don't have any source or evidence to back up your claim.This is pretty much what I also argue, except that without the article the properties or actions of the Father are in purview, rather than his person.
At least you are honest here: you discounted them. You didn't take them seriously because they clearly refute your position.As for your three alleged exceptions, which I have already discounted,
We get it; you won't be persuaded by the facts.out of over 1000 references to θεός in the NT, I can't be bothered with this discussion any longer. As you can't see your case is hopeless for making out θεός as denoting either the person of the Father, or the person of the Christ or the person of the Holy Spirit....Amen.
How do you interpret Revelation 5:6? By your account, it cannot be logical. By my account, man is not able to limit God in any way. So if God can send out multiple Spirits from himself, then we have to accept it.It doesn’t matter, the spirit of individual X is never an individual ( the same, or another) according to the scriptural definition, anymore than apostle Paul’s spirit is the same individual as apostle Paul. Come to think of it, how would that even make logical sense ?
There is only one who is God.Yes, but that's only because you don't realize that you are the wall that is being spoken to.
They wouldn't because it is clearly not used exclusively for the Father. This FACT is why they generally don't, though like the composition of any group I am sure you could find an exception.
No. It is proof that ὁ θεός (you have erroneously capitalized θ again) can be used as a reference to the Father. One exception to this disproves your assertion that "ὁ θεός [is] used exclusively for the Father's person, and you have been given several.
And Paul uses a ὁ θεός in a way where the Father isn't intended thus disproving your assertion.
Here is Intermediate New Testament Greek : a linguistic and exegetical approach / by Richard A. YoungThis exclusively your argument. You don't have any source or evidence to back up your claim.
"Seven" is the number of completion in the Revelation. The "seven spirits of God" is an epithet of the Holy Spirit of God in it's role as the fulfilling power of God; to bring into completion all of his purposes and plans for the end times.How do you interpret Revelation 5:6? By your account, it cannot be logical. By my account, man is not able to limit God in any way. So if God can send out multiple Spirits from himself, then we have to accept it.
It's what "John" said in John 1:1. Are you accusing him of paganism/polytheism, too?If you think there can be more than one ὁ θεός in heaven, you are probably gravitating even if inadvertently towards paganism, as polytheism was definitely repudiated by the OT.
Nor did the New Testament writers, but they wrote what they wrote.Note the Hebrews never conceived the word of God or the spirit of God as increasing the numbers of Gods, or as supplanting YHWH.
What you are saying is that this source doesn't support your position at all.Here is Intermediate New Testament Greek : a linguistic and exegetical approach / by Richard A. Young
"The Article Used with Monadic Nouns and Proper Names
Monadic nouns—A monadic noun refers to something of which there is thought to be only one (e.g., γη, ήλιος, θεός, ουρανός, σελήμη). The article is present about eighty percent of the time with the nouns listed, even though it is not needed to distinguish them from others since they are one of a kind. Dana and Mantey (1955:139-40) suggest that the article with θεός usually signifies divine personality, either God the Father or the Triune Godhead, whereas its absence focuses on the essence or attributes of divinity."
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This view is pretty similar to my view, except obviously I don't accept that the "Triune Godhead" (horrible phrase) can be denoted as a single person (as it's contrary to NT teaching), nor do I view anarthrous θεός as about essence, but rather about properties and deeds.