Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

That is a direct command from God for one time only. He never repeated those commands but gave the commandment not to make images of things in heaven.

Deut 5:8

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

I mean Mary is in heaven isn't she, the so called saints are in heaven aren't they? It is repeated again.

Ex 20:4+

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Lev 26;1

You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.


The repeating of something many times in scripture is a clear signal from God NOT to do it. Yet constantly RCs ignore all these warnings because of Ex 25:8. The RCs are being lead by blind guides. No apostle ever prayed to Mary after she died or to any saint. They did not have statues made.
 
Why do you think that those images were required by God? To make it look pretty?
Pay attention now Pilgrim for the answer, because you deliberately ignore the questions asked of you by side-swiping it in a foolish effort to try to end the thread. The context of Ex.25 Pilgrim, provides no support for the veneration of the image of the cherubim. In fact Pilgrim, the cherubim were in the most holy place, and only the high priest was allowed to enter the most holy place, and then only once a year. It was inaccessible to the average person. And further note Pilgrim, that the cherubim were a part of the ark of the covenant. They were not some separate item that was to be venerated or worshipped. Not even the ark of the covenant was venerated or worshipped, Pilgrim. And. . . further note Pilgrim that the whole reason why the high priest would enter into the most holy place once a year to stand before the ark had to do with the worship of the one true God, not for the veneration of relics Pilgrim - now, go share the truth with your fellow RC's who like yourself, have been led by the RCC to believe a lie.
 
Pay attention now Pilgrim for the answer, because you deliberately ignore the questions asked of you by side-swiping it in a foolish effort to try to end the thread. The context of Ex.25 Pilgrim, provides no support for the veneration of the image of the cherubim. In fact Pilgrim, the cherubim were in the most holy place, and only the high priest was allowed to enter the most holy place, and then only once a year. It was inaccessible to the average person. And further note Pilgrim, that the cherubim were a part of the ark of the covenant. They were not some separate item that was to be venerated or worshipped. Not even the ark of the covenant was venerated or worshipped, Pilgrim. And. . . further note Pilgrim that the whole reason why the high priest would enter into the most holy place once a year to stand before the ark had to do with the worship of the one true God, not for the veneration of relics Pilgrim - now, go share the truth with your fellow RC's who like yourself, have been led by the RCC to believe a lie.
They were graven images that were not worshiped. Therefore, not all graven images are bad. Only those worshiped as gods.
 
Not to be bowed and scraped to. There is only one person that would ever see those images......the high priest of the temple, one time ayear.
GOD does not require graven images. Your apostate false religion requires them. GOD has not changed since the infinite past and HE will not change at all into the infinite future. GOD does not lie, the rcc does. By propagating the lies of the rcc, you do too. The rcc has gone out of it's way over the last 1700 years to make a liar out GOD the Father, Jesus the SON, and GOD the Holy Spirit.
You have absolutely no proof that GOD told the rcc to fashion images after Mary or the "saints", or to worship or pray to these images. Exodus 25:18 describes images that were to be put into the Tabernacle of GOD, the Place in which HE resided while HE was with the Jews. I will stand by my original reply to your nonsensical answer.
 
The Roman Catholic Church totally supports the veneration (aka: worship) of images. In Exodus 25:18 the Bible states that Moses was commanded by God to "make 2 cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat." Roman Catholic scholars often argue that this verse justifies and supports the RCC's veneration of sacred images. Is that your belief also?
Nope, as am a Reformed Baptist, and have no graven images!
 
You may fool yourself with that answer. You may fool the secular world with that answer. Do not think for a second that you will fool GOD with that answer.
Can you produce any official teaching of the Catholic church throughout the centuries that instructs us to worship anyone but God alone?
 
Can you produce any official teaching of the Catholic church throughout the centuries that instructs us to worship anyone but God alone?
Monkey say monkey do. There is probably not one statue of Mary that went unkissed by JPII as he passed by. As a matter of fact, he went out of his way to worship Mary. I would say that anyone asking would be hard pressed to find someone that would not agree with the statement that the pompous maximus is a role model for all rc's.You said yourself that It was necessary for salvation to believe in the Marian Dogmas.

Catholic News Agency------->"There are four dogmas stating Mary's personal relationship with God and her role in human salvation".
 
oh no, they never call names and insult Catholics. :rolleyes:
Facts are not name calling or insults. They are neutral. Yep RCs make out that the truth is name calling, insults, anti RCC, even ad hominems. That is a false claim and it falls it with what RCs are programmed to believe about other believers.

This is a shame because the response to the facts and the truth is to avoid them, divert or attack the poster. Instead of trying any form of proper debate about the facts and truth.
 
Monkey say monkey do. There is probably not one statue of Mary that went unkissed by JPII as he passed by. As a matter of fact, he went out of his way to worship Mary. I would say that anyone asking would be hard pressed to find someone that would not agree with the statement that the pompous maximus is a role model for all rc's.You said yourself that It was necessary for salvation to believe in the Marian Dogmas.

Catholic News Agency------->"There are four dogmas stating Mary's personal relationship with God and her role in human salvation".
She did have a role. And her role counteracted the role that Eve had in the downfall of man.
 
Facts are not name calling or insults. They are neutral. Yep RCs make out that the truth is name calling, insults, anti RCC, even ad hominems. That is a false claim and it falls it with what RCs are programmed to believe about other believers.

This is a shame because the response to the facts and the truth is to avoid them, divert or attack the poster. Instead of trying any form of proper debate about the facts and truth.
They know good and well that neither the truth nor the facts align with what they try to feed us every day.
 
She did have a role. And her role counteracted the role that Eve had in the downfall of man.
When I was a newly Christian, I thought that I could actually change the minds of rc's so that they would see the light. Short of a miracle of God, I now realize that a majority of rc's will remain blind to the truth of GOD. BTW, do you want to stick with your statement that rc's do not worship Mary? I do not mind if you change your mind. Tell me this, if everyone's salvation goes through Mary as you say it does, how can you NOT worship her?
 
When I was a newly Christian, I thought that I could actually change the minds of rc's so that they would see the light. Short of a miracle of God, I now realize that a majority of rc's will remain blind to the truth of GOD. BTW, do you want to stick with your statement that rc's do not worship Mary? I do not mind if you change your mind. Tell me this, if everyone's salvation goes through Mary as you say it does, how can you NOT worship her?
She is not God. Is that clear?
 
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