Do the "elect", "chosen” or “choice” ones of God know who they are?

[fltom]

You said paradise = heaven and paradise is the underworld.

Yes and you called it the underworld. Then you said paradise = heaven.

You associated it sir , you made your conclusions...Paul said he does not know if he was in the body or out of the body therefore he does not know where he went. Paul is just using words to explain his experience.

Your word is evidence of what you are saying. You said heaven = paradise, and paradise is the underworld.

You believe the article else you wouldn't use it as support for your belief.

All you are saying is that the underworld=paradise is now up not down. You are claiming that the underworld = paradise moved from down to up. Are you not aware of what you are writing?

What part of the word up confuses you

he was caught up into paradise,



Of course I know what I am saying

Its scripture

I posted it over a half-dozen times

and you do not deal with it

 

[Newbirth]

What part of the word up confuses you

he was caught up into paradise,

the part where you said paradise is the underworld.

Of course I know what I am saying

No you don't you said paradise is the underworld. Then you said paradise is heaven

Its scripture

Actually it is your misunderstanding of the scripture.

I posted it over a half-dozen times

and you do not deal with it

Posting the same thing repeatedly does not change your misunderstanding. Heaven = paradise = underworld

 

[fltom]

the part where you said paradise is the underworld.

No you don't you said paradise is the underworld. Then you said paradise is heaven

Actually it is your misunderstanding of the scripture.

Posting the same thing repeatedly does not change your misunderstanding. Heaven = paradise = underworld

Sorry you just refused to heed scripture

he was caught up into paradise,

you refuse to deal with it

and you have not shown any misunderstanding

 

[Newbirth]

Sorry you just refused to heed scripture

How so? You are yet to tell me how Paul was caught up.

he was caught up into paradise,

Here is the context...
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
You are trying to make doctrine with a snippet of the scripture and not the context. That is a recipe for disaster

you refuse to deal with it

I am dealing with it, you are the one who wants to take six words from a passage to make doctrine. I am asking you a question, If you don't know whether you are in the body or out of the body and you told me you went somewhere, should I accept it as if you knew where you went?

and you have not shown any misunderstanding

Not on this matter.

 

[fltom]

How so? You are yet to tell me how Paul was caught up.

Here is the context...
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
You are trying to make doctrine with a snippet of the scripture and not the context. That is a recipe for disaster

I am dealing with it, you are the one who wants to take six words from a passage to make doctrine. I am asking you a question, If you don't know whether you are in the body or out of the body and you told me you went somewhere, should I accept it as if you knew where you went?

Not on this matter.

You have not shown that context propagates other than the idea paradise is up

he was caught up into paradise,

Up

Paradice is up

you are simply denying the text

Further paradise is used interchangeably with the third heaven

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise,

 

[Newbirth]

You have not shown that context propagates other than the idea paradise is up

You said paradise is the underworld, didn't you? The context of the whole passage is Paul's personal experience where he claims that he is not sure whether he was in the body or out of the body.

he was caught up into paradise,

Up

Paradice is up

you are simply denying the text

Further paradise is used interchangeably with the third heaven

I am not denying the text, I am questioning your position that paradise is both the underworld and heaven.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise,

The text is clear Paul knew the man, but he does not know if he was in the body or out of the body. Therefore he cannot be sure where he went. You are focused on the uncertain part of the text. "Caught up" is an expression used to describe his experience, and paradise and third heaven are expressions used to describe the place he assumed he was.

It has become abundantly clear that you are assuming that Paul ascended to heaven. The word used in the passage does not mean to ascend.

 

[fltom]

You said paradise is the underworld, didn't you? The context of the whole passage is Paul's personal experience where he claims that he is not sure whether he was in the body or out of the body.

I am not denying the text, I am questioning your position that paradise is both the underworld and heaven.

The text is clear Paul knew the man, but he does not know if he was in the body or out of the body. Therefore he cannot be sure where he went. You are focused on the uncertain part of the text. "Caught up" is an expression used to describe his experience, and paradise and third heaven are expressions used to describe the place he assumed he was.

It has become abundantly clear that you are assuming that Paul ascended to heaven. The word used in the passage does not mean to ascend.

Yeah you did deny the text

and he went up

And the word translated caught up is Harpazo

It is the same word seen here

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Newbirth]

Yeah you did deny the text

and he went up

You should look up the Greek word ...it does not mean to ascend...

And the word translated caught up is Harpazo

It is the same word seen here

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

lol you just proved yourself wrong again... the word does not mean to literally go up. The same word is used in Acts 8:39

 

[fltom]

You should look up the Greek word ...it does not mean to ascend...

lol you just proved yourself wrong again... the word does not mean to literally go up. The same word is used in Acts 8:39

Already did it is the same word translated caught up at

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

but mor importantly in verse 2

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

where the meaning is clear and he uses it again in verse 4

Paul still uses the term Paradise interchangeably with the third heaven

 

[Newbirth]

Already did it is the same word translated caught up at

No, you did not...You are assuming the word means literallu to go up...when it means to snatch away...

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You have to understand the original words were Greek words, not English words. The Greek word for up is
πάνω páno Go look it up.

but mor importantly in verse 2

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

where the meaning is clear and he uses it again in verse 4

Paul still uses the term Paradise interchangeably with the third heaven

No, those are two different places, which is proof that Paul did not know where he went. You cannot interchange paradise which you already acknowledge as the underworld, with heaven where God dwells.

 

[fltom]

No, you did not...You are assuming the word means literallu to go up...when it means to snatch away...

Where is the third heaven?

Up or down

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

caught up

up to the third heaven that is up

that sets the context for verse 4 and the interchange between the third heaven and paradise

You have to understand the original words were Greek words, not English words. The Greek word for up is
πάνω páno Go look it up.

No, those are two different places, which is proof that Paul did not know where he went. You cannot interchange paradise which you already acknowledge as the underworld, with heaven where God dwells.

Except it is harpazo which every single major translation has up in it as caught up for example

(ESV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

(csb) I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don't know; God knows.

(KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(NASB) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

(NET) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven.

(NIV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know.

(NKJV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

(Revised Standard ) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

(ASV) I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.

(NRSV) I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.


Sorry Paul was inspired you are not

 

[Newbirth]

Where is the third heaven?

How would I know? Even Paul is not sure, he said God knows.

Up or down

I cannot tell ...those are the words Paul used.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

caught up

up to the third heaven that is up

that sets the context for verse 4 and the interchange between the third heaven and paradise

The Greek word does not mean to literally go up, Does it? You should do some research.

Except it is harpazo which every single major translation has up in it as caught up for example

(ESV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

(csb) I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don't know; God knows.

(KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(NASB) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

(NET) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven.

(NIV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know.

(NKJV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

(Revised Standard ) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

(ASV) I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.

(NRSV) I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.


Sorry Paul was inspired you are not

You are sorry that Paul was inspired? Why? Is it because the word harpazo does not mean to literally go up? It is the same word used to describe Philip's experience...Did Philip go up?

 

[fltom]

How would I know? Even Paul is not sure, he said God knows.

I cannot tell ...those are the words Paul used.

The Greek word does not mean to literally go up, Does it? You should do some research.

You are sorry that Paul was inspired? Why? Is it because the word harpazo does not mean to literally go up? It is the same word used to describe Philip's experience...Did Philip go up?

So you do not know where the third heaven is

and you contradict every major translation

and apparently do not know context determines meaning

and you want to talk about research?


Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
.......
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Newbirth]

So you do not know where the third heaven is

Paul does not know either... He admits only God knows where he went..

and you contradict every major translation

I have not contradicted the Greek text, have I? The Greek text does not mean to go upwards as you are implying.

and apparently do not know context determines meaning

Context and meaning work hand in hand to allow understanding.

and you want to talk about research?

Yes I did. It appears that you did not take the time to look up the Greek word for "UP "

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It does not say where the paradise od God is, does it?

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So this is a vision, and a new Jerusalem is coming down. Where do you suppose the new Jerusalem is going up or down? If that is the same place Paul went in his vision, then it could be down, couldn't it?

.......
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

You seem very confused...The place being described is the new earth...Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, You are assuming that it is heaven. Do you know what descending means?

 

[fltom]

Paul does not know either... He admits only God knows where he went..

I have not contradicted the Greek text, have I? The Greek text does not mean to go upwards as you are implying.

Just about every interpretor of the greek text

Context determines meaning

Context and meaning work hand in hand to allow understanding.

Yes I did. It appears that you did not take the time to look up the Greek word for "UP "

It does not say where the paradise od God is, does it?

So this is a vision, and a new Jerusalem is coming down. Where do you suppose the new Jerusalem is going up or down? If that is the same place Paul went in his vision, then it could be down, couldn't it?

The New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven

That is was up it is coming down

In the midst is the tree of life

The tree of life is here

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Ah the tree of life was up in heaven

and in the midst of the Paradise of God

You seem very confused...The place being described is the new earth...Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, You are assuming that it is heaven. Do you know what descending means?

Rather it is you who are confused

it is the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven

Revelation 21:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


the tree of life is there

The tree of life is in the midst of the Paradise of God

 

[Newbirth]

Just about every interpretor of the greek text

Nope not one says harpazo means to go up.

Context determines meaning

If you don't know the meaning of the words, how can know the context?

The New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven

Therefore it is not down yet, is it? So you have to explain why you said paradise is the underworld and claim paradise is in heaven.

That is was up it is coming down

But it is not down yet. The passage is about things to come.

In the midst is the tree of life

The tree of life is here.

Fine, the tree is there, so now, explain why you said that paradise is the underworld. It is a contradiction.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Is this the same paradise that you said is the underworld? Or is it another paradise?

Ah the tree of life was up in heaven

and in the midst of the Paradise of God

So are you saying that hell was in heaven? because you specifically said paradise was the underworld or did you forget?

Rather it is you who are confused

You are yet to show how.

it is the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven

Revelation 21:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Yes and the tree of life is in the new Jerusalem. Rev22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Your whole premise is based on an old paradise that was somehow down then went up to come down again...You seem not to understand what NEW means.

the tree of life is there

In the NEW Jerusalem which is yet to come.

The tree of life is in the midst of the Paradise of God

Which is the NEW Jerusalem that is yet to come... If it is already here, then it is old... Words have meaning...You are claiming that is where Paul went. While Paul is not sure where he went. You claimed paradise is the underworld, then you claimed that paradise is heaven. You need to be consistent.

 

[fltom]

Nope not one says harpazo means to go up.

If you don't know the meaning of the words, how can know the context?

The context consist of more that one word which is why no major translation agrees with you

Therefore it is not down yet, is it? So you have to explain why you said paradise is the underworld and claim paradise is in heaven.

Timing is why

When we first see paradise it is abode of the righteous dead

after Christ's resurrection it is seen up in the third heaven

finally it comes down from heaven

It seems Paradise changes to where the presence of Christ abides

keep that in mind and you will not need to ask such questions

 

[Newbirth]

The context consist of more that one word which is why no major translation agrees with you

I never said the context is one word...I said words have meaning. Harpazo does not mean to go up.

Timing is why

When we first see paradise it is abode of the righteous dead

Which you said is the underworld.

after Christ's resurrection it is seen up in the third heaven

No, it is not. You assume that. You are referring to a place seen in visions that are futuristic.

finally it comes down from heaven

The place seen coming down is a vision of the future.

It seems Paradise changes to where the presence of Christ abides

Then paradise is on earth in the midst of the believers...
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

keep that in mind and you will not need to ask such questions

Keep what in mind? All you have done is show your misunderstanding of scripture. I will keep that in mind.

 

[fltom]

I never said the context is one word...I said words have meaning. Harpazo does not mean to go up.

It that context it does

The third heaven is up

Which you said is the underworld.

Which you agreed with

No, it is not. You assume that. You are referring to a place seen in visions that are futuristic.

Sorry no it is not futuristic

Its past

2 Corinthians 12:2–3 (ESV) — 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

The place seen coming down is a vision of the future.

Yeah and paradise is seen up there

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

the tree of life is in the paradise of God

in the new Jerusalem which came down from heaven

The fact it is future is irrelevant the fact that came down from heaven important

Then paradise is on earth in the midst of the believers...
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Keep what in mind? All you have done is show your misunderstanding of scripture. I will keep that in mind.

You are whilsing inn the dark

You ignore the translations

You ignore Pauls equating Paradise with the third heaven

You ignore the location of the tree of life which is in Paradise and later coming down from heaven in the new Jerusalem

So so how can the tree of life be in paradise and in the New jerusalem which comes down from heaven if Paradise was not up

 

[Newbirth]

It that context it does

No, it does not. Go look at the Greek word fo up.

The third heaven is up

up where? It is already established that is referring to something yet to come.

Which you agreed with

that is why I didn't agree with your paradise is up theory.

Sorry no it is not futuristic

So you are saying that the new Jerusalem has already come down from heaven? So where is it?

Its past

So where is the new Jerusalem that came down from heaven?

2 Corinthians 12:2–3 (ESV) — 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

Paul is referring to a vision since he does not know if he was in the body or out of the body.

Yeah and paradise is seen up there

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

the tree of life is in the paradise of God

in the new Jerusalem which came down from heaven

The fact it is future is irrelevant the fact that came down from heaven important

You are not making any sense...You said the fact that it is the future, therefore it has not happened yet. So it cannot be a fact that it came down.

You are whilsing inn the dark

the dark between your ears

You ignore the translations

Nope you misunderstand the translations

You ignore Pauls equating Paradise with the third heaven

You are assuming that Paul is equating... This puts you in a position of many different heavens...

You ignore the location of the tree of life which is in Paradise and later coming down from heaven in the new Jerusalem

It says the paradise of God...Is the paradise of God the same paradise that you call the underworld?

So so how can the tree of life be in paradise and in the New jerusalem which comes down from heaven if Paradise was not up

You are not very bright. The new Jerusalem does not exist yet else there would be two Jerusalems. If the new Jerusalem does not exist yet, then the paradise of God in the new Jerusalem does not exist yet.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.