Open Heart
Well-known member
HOw is that kept automatically? It takes will mixed with God's grace to do the above.
Jesus the final sacrifice?
- Thread starter Jewjitzu
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
How do you love your neighbor as yourself? Follow the rest of the commandments.
BTW, can a person love God at a time when they are mindlessly speaking in tongues?
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
They are all eternal.
Psalm 111:9
He has sent redemption to His people; He has ordained His covenant forever; holy and awesome is His name.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Whatever your conscience tells you to do, or not to do - obey it. Jesus has made His yoke very light and easy. Not like having to memorize 613 commandments, and keep the letter of the law. You already will like to obey, because it is now part of your nature that you would do automatically, not like you have to keep the letter of the law with head knowledge and struggle
1 John 3:21
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
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Open Heart
Well-known member
it is good advice to obey your conscience. yet it takes will and grace from God to do so. nothing automatic about it.
SPOKENWORD
Well-known member
So you sins are only covered ,not atoned for. without the shedding of blood there is no atonement. The blood of Jeshua is what atones one of all their sins. On judgement day the Father sees us with the robe of rightiousness of His Son Yeshua. Its the only way reguardless of what the rabbi,s teach.
Open Heart
Well-known member
I realize you are trying to use Jesus' Aramaic name, but you need to remember that there is no J in either Hebrew and Aramaic. If you are going to go for the original pronunciation, that would be Yeshua.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Do you know what grace is? If you do, then you are right. And my free will wants to obey my conscience, but grace is why my conscience tells me the truth. So what is your definition of God's grace. I've never asked a non-Christian before, so am really interested in your answer.
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Open Heart
Well-known member
Of course I know what grace is. But there is more than one meaning:
1. grace as in grace and poise, how you handle yourself well.
2. grace as in undeserved mercy
3. grace as in the power of God within us, enabling us to be who he has called us to be and to do what he asks us to do.
I'm sure a native Hebrew speaker might be able to add to that.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Finally! Yes!
Many Christians don't know anything more than the first two. What Jesus accomplished on the cross is the third one. The Christians with false teachers believe that one is impossible, because they are only thinking with their natural mind, and have never been born again with the power of God.
Open Heart
Well-known member
I don't need to be a Christian to experience God's grace.
Deuteronomy
Active member
Hello again Jewjitzu, there was a 44 yr old teacher in Uvalde, TX who, just a week ago, did her best to protect and save the lives of her elementary students by standing in the path of the gunman's bullets. She sacrificed herself for their sakes, but we don't call that kind of heroism a "human sacrifice".
While I certainly agree with you that humans sacrificing other humans is an utterly wrong thing to do, just like the teacher in Uvalde, that's obviously NOT what happened in the case of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rather, He 'willingly' chose to go to the Cross to die on behalf of others (to finally make atonement for a believers' sins a reality, to satisfy the wrath that His Father held against them, and then to reconcile them to Him, IOW, He chose to die to save us).
Now, it's true that the authorities had Him put to death (though they did so w/o cause because He was completely innocent of wrongdoing of any kind), but that act was hardly one human being sacrificing another human (which is what the pagans did whenever they performed that horrible ritual in a vain attempt to gain the favor of one or more of their "gods").
It is in the Lord Jesus Christ that we find all that was foreshadowed by the Temple, the altar, the sacrifices, the blood, the Holy of Holies, etc., as well the Commandments (He is, in point of fact, "the word of God"). IOW, these were all symbols that represented Him & looked forward to His coming.
This gets back to the heart of my inquiry in this thread, but with a bit of a different twist (which I thank you for pointing out to me as I am taking note of things which I had not previously seen .. though the jury is still out about what to make of all of them). So, my slightly amended question is this, why the sacrifices/what was the point of having them (since it seems clear that God forgave the worst of a believer's sins, like intentional murder and adultery, apart from them)
Just to be clear, I am not arguing this point in any way with you, just very interested in hearing your thoughts/hearing what the Jewish take on all of this is so that I can begin to learn more about it
Thanks!
~Deuteronomy
p.s. - after Jesus entered the Temple one year (just prior to the Passover), He drove out the moneychangers (merchants). Afterwards, the Jews approached Him and asked Him,
John 2
18 “What sign do You show to us, seeing that You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken.
Open Heart
Well-known member
But that teacher didn't claim to be an atonement sacrifice for sin, or to be the passover lamb. That's a HUGE difference.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
She didn't die for their sins.
Doesn't matter. Human sacrifices are an abomination in Tanakh.
Sorry, but even if you wanted argue he was a shadow, his blood didn't make it on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem according to the commandments.
There is a cost to sin, and it brings separation between us and God.This gets back to the heart of my inquiry in this thread, but with a bit of a different twist (which I thank you for pointing out to me as I am taking note of things which I had not previously seen .. though the jury is still out about what to make of all of them). So, my slightly amended question is this, why the sacrifices/what was the point of having them (since it seems clear that God forgave the worst of a believer's sins, like intentional murder and adultery, apart from them)
Just to be clear, I am not arguing this point in any way with you, just very interested in hearing your thoughts/hearing what the Jewish take on all of this is so that I can begin to learn more about it
Thanks!
That's nice, but it has nothing to do with the topic nor any prophecies.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Ezekiel 36: 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
When I was filled with His Spirit in 1977 His will became my will.
You believe this verse is still future, not 2000 years ago.
(First coming) Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
(second coming) 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
We've already received the benefit of the first coming. But when every eye sees Yeshua coming back for good, that is the second part of this prophecy. He's coming soon, so I believe you will see Him soon. But by then you and the rest of national Israel will be saved, and you too with partake of the first part also.
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sk0rpi0n
Active member
Another point is that the prophet Ezekiel says that in the future, animal sin sacrifices would be reinstated. Ezekiel 43 mentions detailed instructions concerning these sacrifices. Ezekiel writes of altars, unblemished animals, sin offerings, Levitical priests and sacrificial rituals. It reads like something from the book of Leviticus.
“Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says…
You are to give a young bull as a sin offering to the Levitical priests…You are to take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar and on the four corners of the upper ledge and all around the rim…You are to take the bull for the sin offering and burn it in the designated part of the temple area…
“On the second day you are to offer a male goat without defect for a sin offering…When you have finished purifying it, you are to offer a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without defect….You are to offer them before the Lord, and the priests are to sprinkle salt on them and sacrifice them as a burnt offering to the Lord….
“For seven days you are to provide a male goat daily for a sin offering…you are also to provide a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without defect….For seven days they are to make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; thus they will dedicate it….the eighth day on, the priests are to present your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings on the altar…
(Ezekiel 43:18-27)
So dear Christians, if animal sacrifices for sin is to be reinstated in the future, then what was the point of Jesus’ sin sacrifice? How can Jesus be the final and perfect sacrifice, as believed by Christians?
docphin5
Well-known member
Is not Ezekiel writing right after the Babylonian captivity? Therefore, his vision could be of the second Temple when sacrifices were performed? I have read scholarly analysis that the Teacher of Righteousness associated his baptism on the prophetic words of Ezekiel, specifically, the water flowing out of the Temple (And also Joshua (Jesus) leading his chosen ones across the Jordan river).
per GRS Mead, regarding Ezekiel 47:9
Wheresoever the river shall come, everything that moveth shall live; and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because the waters shall come thither. . . . And it shall come to pass [that] the fishers stand by it from En-Gedi unto En-Eglaim; they shall be [a place] to spread forth nets [for all fish] according to their kinds."
En-Gedi and En-Eglaim were two oases with fresh-water springs—the Gedi or Kid Spring and the Eglaim or (?) Calf Spring—on the shores of the Dead Sea or Salt Lake. The former was the chief centre of the Essenes. With such a striking figure before him it would be easy for John, the proclaimer of repentance and the turning again to God of a righteous remnant, to believe that in the Days of the End (i.e. the “Last Days”) there were to be prophets who should be 'fishers of men.'
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CharismaticLady
Well-known member
@Jewjitzu and @Open Heart
I was reading Daniel 9:24-27 in the Tanakh. Could you explain to me what the 7 days represent and the following 62 days? Or maybe it was 63 days. Why is it separated, and what happened in the fulfillment? And who was the leader in the 7 days?
I'm glad I have you guys to ask questions of. I've tried to contact local rabbis with no luck.
I was reading Daniel 9:24-27 in the Tanakh. Could you explain to me what the 7 days represent and the following 62 days? Or maybe it was 63 days. Why is it separated, and what happened in the fulfillment? And who was the leader in the 7 days?
I'm glad I have you guys to ask questions of. I've tried to contact local rabbis with no luck.
Open Heart
Well-known member
I really detest apocalyptic literature. Largely because there is always this incessant arguing about what the symbols mean. I dont' think you can use the seventy years as a way to figure out when the messiah is coming. 70 years is just "a long time." That's about the only answer I can give you.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
You could check out Rabbi Singer at Outreach Judaism.
Basically the 70 weeks, 490 years, are a punishment for the sabbatical years, Lev 25:1-22, Lev 26:18, 2 Chronicles 36:21-23.
Cyrus is the anointed one after 7 weeks, Isaiah 44:28-45:1,13. The 2nd anointed comes after 62 weeks.
Overall, the important point is that sin was to end. That didn't happen with Jesus.