Rapture yes or no

I know' and it is most evident with people as yourself dont believe Jesus was the Christ but believe he was a god instead.

Again, this thread is not about Gary Mac and his religion of denial that Jesus is the Christ.

It's about the Rapture.


God bless.
 
It's not used to judge anyone, it is simply a matter of whether someone is in there or not:


Revelation 20:12 KJV
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Revelation 20:15 KJV
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



The "Books" men will be judged according to will be the Word of God. When they are judged, it is very possible that they will be blotted from the book of life at this time. It is my view based on David's plea that all men are in the Book of Life and are blotted out at one point or another. That might be at their physical death or it might be at the Great White Throne. I lean towards the Great White Throne because I believe men still go to the Just side of Sheol/Hades today. Murdered infants in the womb, for example.

As far as missing a connection all I see is a demand to focus on a point and then a retreat from the point when it is discussed for the purpose of focusing on that point, lol.


God bless.
I expounded upon my point earlier. Did you see this post?
 
OK, I'll expound upon the point.

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
John 5:28‭-‬29

You are discussing the resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgement. This is discussed in John 5:28-29.

John makes it clear there is an hour, not two different hours, but one hour that the dead will come out of the tombs. They come together. Those who will be mentioned in the book of life and those who are not. Let's confirm this:

"
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 20:11‭-‬15

There will be the dead who are found in the book of life and those who are not. Both the righteousness and unrighteous are at the great white throne. This is when the Book of Life is opened. This is when those before the tribulation will have their eternal destination decided.

For, they can't be pre-trib raptured to life before the Book of Life is opened.

They have to be resurrected when the Book of Life is opened, not thousands of years before the book of life is opened.

There is no such demand made at all.

You forget that Old Testament Prophecy concerning the Resurrection of the Dead taught a single event (cf.Daniel 12:1-2). Christ's teaching falls into Old Testament Prophecy, because He was made under the Law and ministered under the Law to those who were under the Law. They were not redeemed from the Law until He died, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter.

Now, one of the things your view overlooks is that the Rapture was a Mystery revealed by Paul.

So you cannot try to make the Lord's teaching apply to the Rapture. It is a separate event not taught in the Old Testament, and not taught by Christ. All of His teaching concerning Resurrection is according to the teachings men already received and taught in a manner they would understand.

Also overlooked is the fact that Prophecy often has partial fulfillment and multiple fulfillment. The example I would give would be Christ's coming: it was not understood that He would come twice so we see partial and multiple fulfillment regarding the same Prophecy.

As far as there being "righteous and unrighteous" at the Great White throne, I would put it as there will be just and unjust. I believe there will be people there who were justified during their lives but not Eternally Redeemed. They will be judged according to "the Books" and will enter into the Eternal State. This is where we would see Matthew 25 (the Sheep and Goat Judgment) having an application for more than one judgment.

And as far as "They can't be pre-trib raptured before the Book of life is opened" I'm sorry, but that is simply error: the Two Witnesses are Pre-Trib Raptured before the Book of Life is opened. Your argument is nullified by Scripture itself.


God bless.
 
Everyone who is born again has been taken out of this world by God Himself.

And only those that confess that Jesus is the Christ are born again, Gary Mac. And only those who are born of God are sons of God.

You cannot be, because you deny that Jesus is the Christ.

It can't get any simpler than that, Gary Mac.

It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


God bless.
 
There is no such demand made at all.

You forget that Old Testament Prophecy concerning the Resurrection of the Dead taught a single event (cf.Daniel 12:1-2). Christ's teaching falls into Old Testament Prophecy, because He was made under the Law and ministered under the Law to those who were under the Law. They were not redeemed from the Law until He died, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter.

Now, one of the things your view overlooks is that the Rapture was a Mystery revealed by Paul.

So you cannot try to make the Lord's teaching apply to the Rapture. It is a separate event not taught in the Old Testament, and not taught by Christ. All of His teaching concerning Resurrection is according to the teachings men already received and taught in a manner they would understand.

Also overlooked is the fact that Prophecy often has partial fulfillment and multiple fulfillment. The example I would give would be Christ's coming: it was not understood that He would come twice so we see partial and multiple fulfillment regarding the same Prophecy.

As far as there being "righteous and unrighteous" at the Great White throne, I would put it as there will be just and unjust. I believe there will be people there who were justified during their lives but not Eternally Redeemed. They will be judged according to "the Books" and will enter into the Eternal State. This is where we would see Matthew 25 (the Sheep and Goat Judgment) having an application for more than one judgment.

And as far as "They can't be pre-trib raptured before the Book of life is opened" I'm sorry, but that is simply error: the Two Witnesses are Pre-Trib Raptured before the Book of Life is opened. Your argument is nullified by Scripture itself.


God bless.
The two witnesses would be similar to those who endure the tribulation or are killed during the tribulation. Their faith is proven to be genuine through the tribulation. They do not need the book of life to be opened. To reject the mark of the Beast is an extremely challenging task that only the truly faithful will be able to do.

However, the rest of the church is made up of wheat and tares. The church cannot be pre-trib raptured because there is no standard yet to compare genuine faith with fake faith.

The tribulation provides the test that all will be compared to. This is why many will proclaim that they did all kinds of things in Christ's name, but He will declare depart from me you evildoers.

Without the tribulation, individuals could claim God is being unfair in His judgment because they claim to follow Christ.

However, with those who live through the tribulation being the standard of a genuine faith, the lives and motives of the hearts will be clearly tested and compared where there is no shadow of a doubt in anyone's mind where their eternal destination needs to be.

And yes, God already knows. But God is also fair in His judgment and provides conclusive evidence why one who proclaims Christ (but is a false beluever) goes to eternal damnation, when another who proclaims Christ (genuinely) lives forever.

Plus, the book of life has not been opened to reveal where those in the church go yet. There is no standard of genuine faith yet until after the tribulation. The book of life is opened when the dead are resurrected. This is when the dead in Christ, before the tribulation are resurrected.
 
OK, I'll expound upon the point.

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
John 5:28‭-‬29

You are discussing the resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgement. This is discussed in John 5:28-29.

John makes it clear there is an hour, not two different hours, but one hour that the dead will come out of the tombs. They come together. Those who will be mentioned in the book of life and those who are not. Let's confirm this:

"
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 20:11‭-‬15

There will be the dead who are found in the book of life and those who are not. Both the righteousness and unrighteous are at the great white throne. This is when the Book of Life is opened. This is when those before the tribulation will have their eternal destination decided.

For, they can't be pre-trib raptured to life before the Book of Life is opened.

They have to be resurrected when the Book of Life is opened, not thousands of years before the book of life is opened.
Why have any type of rapture then?

For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Matthew 24:38-42​

That is not the Rapture... That speaks of the removal of all unbelievers from earth to clear the way just before the Millennium.

There is more going on than easily realized.

And, keep in mind. When Jesus was on earth he taught as a rabbi teaching Jews. Teaching according to OT understanding.
The church age was yet hidden and unknown... a mystery later to be revealed, only after Jesus was ascended and glorified.

Do not confuse the two different points of reference. OT saints will have their resurrection. The Church will have its own. Only the Church will receive a glorious body like the Lord's. Not like the OT saints who will have a resurrection body from the elements of the New Earth that will last forever.

OT saints and Jews were promised an earthly kingdom that will be everlasting. In contrast. The Church's home is to be heaven.

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:20

grace and peace .........
 
Why have any type of rapture then?

For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Matthew 24:38-42​

That is not the Rapture... That speaks of the removal of all unbelievers from earth to clear the way just before the Millennium.

There is more going on than easily realized.

And, keep in mind. When Jesus was on earth he taught as a rabbi teaching Jews. Teaching according to OT understanding.
The church age was yet hidden and unknown... a mystery later to be revealed, only after Jesus was ascended and glorified.

Do not confuse the two different points of reference. OT saints will have their resurrection. The Church will have its own. Only the Church will receive a glorious body like the Lord's. Not like the OT saints who will have a resurrection body from the elements of the New Earth that will last forever.

OT saints and Jews were promised an earthly kingdom that will be everlasting. In contrast. The Church's home is to be heaven.

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:20

grace and peace .........
That's right. There is not a rapture, in the sense of being taken off the earth.

Instead, there is a meeting in the clouds to then escort Jesus down to reign as King of kings.

It would be good to get rid of the word "rapture" because it is taken to mean something it does not actually mean.
 
However, the rest of the church is made up of wheat and tares. The church cannot be pre-trib raptured because there is no standard yet to compare genuine faith with fake faith.
Compared by whom? By men who evaluate by sight? Or, by God?

When the Church is raptured those who are in the rapture will then be evaluated by the Lord for rewards.

Keep in mind. They will already have their own resurrection body when evaluated.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been
built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss
but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15​


Those who failed to please God? Believed in and lived by false doctrines? As a result of their unfaithfulness they are denied their rewards.
Yet, it says they will "escape through the flames," and be saved.... because their resurrection bodies can not die in the flames.

In turn. The ones who lose rewards will remain eternally grateful for having such a life granted to them in spite of themselves.

grace and peace ...........
 
The two witnesses would be similar to those who endure the tribulation or are killed during the tribulation.

It's not similar at all: the Two Witnesses are killed during the Tribulation, resurrected (before the First Resurrection), and raptured.

Stay on point, Neo.


God bless.
 
That's right. There is not a rapture, in the sense of being taken off the earth.

Instead, there is a meeting in the clouds to then escort Jesus down to reign as King of kings.

It would be good to get rid of the word "rapture" because it is taken to mean something it does not actually mean.
You missed the point. Jesus spoke before the church age began of that removal of people from the earth . It was in accordance with Jewish prophecy. That removal will not be the Rapture, but the removal of the tares just before the Millennial reign of Christ on earth begins. The Millennium is going to begin on earth with only believers. The tares must be first removed!

There will be two different eternal worlds to live in. The Bride will be with Christ in the heavenly home. And, all other believers who are not Church will reside gloriously on the New Earth that God will create.
 
Compared by whom? By men who evaluate by sight? Or, by God?

When the Church is raptured those who are in the rapture will then be evaluated by the Lord for rewards.

Keep in mind. They will already have their own resurrection body when evaluated.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been
built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss
but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15​


Those who failed to please God? Believed in and lived by false doctrines? As a result of their unfaithfulness they are denied their rewards.
Yet, it says they will "escape through the flames," and be saved.... because their resurrection bodies can not die in the flames.

In turn. The ones who lose rewards will remain eternally grateful for having such a life granted to them in spite of themselves.

grace and peace ...........
God compares the lives of everyone to the lives of those in the tribulation. God shows us why we have a genuine faith or not.

For, the standard of the most extreme persecution and suffering in the tribulation will be greater than any individuals life before the tribulation.

Those who proclaim Christ falsely will have lives similar to those before the tribulation. Their similar actions reveal the true faith within an individual. And the same goes for true believers.
 
The church is not raptured before the tribulation. Thus, those who overcome are the one's from the Church and the one's who died that were in the church.
Makes no sense to suddenly switch over to 144000 Jews to evangelize the world if the Church is to be still on earth.

The Church will be "gone."
 
Compared by whom? By men who evaluate by sight? Or, by God?

When the Church is raptured those who are in the rapture will then be evaluated by the Lord for rewards.

Keep in mind. They will already have their own resurrection body when evaluated.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been
built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss
but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15​


Those who failed to please God? Believed in and lived by false doctrines? As a result of their unfaithfulness they are denied their rewards.
Yet, it says they will "escape through the flames," and be saved.... because their resurrection bodies can not die in the flames.

In turn. The ones who lose rewards will remain eternally grateful for having such a life granted to them in spite of themselves.

grace and peace ...........
God compares the lives of everyone to the lives of those in the tribulation. God shows us why we have a genuine faith or not.

For, the standard of the most extreme persecution and suffering in the tribulation will be greater than any individuals life before the tribulation.

Those who proclaim Christ falsely will have lives similar to those before the tribulation. Their similar actions reveal the true faith within an individual. And the same goes for true believers
 
It's not similar at all: the Two Witnesses are killed during the Tribulation, resurrected (before the First Resurrection), and raptured.

Stay on point, Neo.


God bless.
The identity of the two witnesses is not known and is speculated. However, we can assume,

"Who are the two witnesses in the book of Revelation?​

two witnesses Revelation
audio

ANSWER

In Revelation 11:3–12 is a description of two individuals who will help accomplish God’s work during the tribulation: “I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth” (verse 3). Nowhere does the Bible identify these two witnesses by name, although people through the years have speculated.

The two witnesses in Revelation will have miraculous powers to accompany their message (Revelation 11:6), and no one will be able to stop them in their work (verse 5). At the end of their ministry, when they have said all they need to say, the beast will kill them and the wicked world will rejoice, allowing the bodies of the fallen prophets to lie in the streets (verses 7–10). Three and a half days later, however, God’s two witnesses will be resurrected and, in full view of their enemies, ascend to heaven (verses 11–12).

There are three primary theories on the identity of the two witnesses in Revelation: (1) Moses and Elijah, (2) Enoch and Elijah, and (3) two unknown believers whom God calls to be His witnesses in the end times.

(1) Moses and Elijah are seen as possibilities for the two witnesses due to the specific miracles that John says the witnesses will perform. The witnesses will have the power to turn water into blood (Revelation 11:6), which duplicates a famous miracle of Moses (Exodus 7). And the witnesses will have the power to destroy their enemies with fire (Revelation 11:5), which corresponds to an event in Elijah’s life (2 Kings 1). Also giving strength to this view is the fact that Moses and Elijah both appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3–4). Further, Jewish tradition expects Moses and Elijah to return, based on the prophecy of Elijah’s coming in Malachi 4:5 and God’s promise to raise up a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18), which some Jews believe necessitates Moses’ return."

If we assumed the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, then they both appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. They would already be with Christ and He is just calling them back. This would be a completely different situation than regular believers in Christ dying and being resurrected.

Now, like I said this is only an assumption, but it could be what happens. Since we don't know for sure, neither you nor I should build any doctrine upon uncertainties.

You can if you want, but I build doctrine upon certainties.

By the way, if we are in Christ and bros in Christ, this should be a respectful conversation. Saying things like "Stay on point, Neo" has a prideful , arrogant, judgmental tone to it. There is no need to say such things. I have heard much worse on this board, but I want to have complete respect in discussions.

Are you OK with this?
 
Again, this thread is not about Gary Mac and his religion of denial that Jesus is the Christ.

It's about the Rapture.


God bless.
Evidently it is about ST Ranger who denies to be that person of Christ as God sent Jesus to show ST what it is to be of Christ and Christian, anointed of God.

Christ like, that is who a Christian is, is like Jesus was in the Father.
 
The identity of the two witnesses is not known and is speculated. However, we can assume,

"Who are the two witnesses in the book of Revelation?​

two witnesses Revelation
audio

ANSWER

In Revelation 11:3–12 is a description of two individuals who will help accomplish God’s work during the tribulation: “I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth” (verse 3). Nowhere does the Bible identify these two witnesses by name, although people through the years have speculated.

The two witnesses in Revelation will have miraculous powers to accompany their message (Revelation 11:6), and no one will be able to stop them in their work (verse 5). At the end of their ministry, when they have said all they need to say, the beast will kill them and the wicked world will rejoice, allowing the bodies of the fallen prophets to lie in the streets (verses 7–10). Three and a half days later, however, God’s two witnesses will be resurrected and, in full view of their enemies, ascend to heaven (verses 11–12).

There are three primary theories on the identity of the two witnesses in Revelation: (1) Moses and Elijah, (2) Enoch and Elijah, and (3) two unknown believers whom God calls to be His witnesses in the end times.

(1) Moses and Elijah are seen as possibilities for the two witnesses due to the specific miracles that John says the witnesses will perform. The witnesses will have the power to turn water into blood (Revelation 11:6), which duplicates a famous miracle of Moses (Exodus 7). And the witnesses will have the power to destroy their enemies with fire (Revelation 11:5), which corresponds to an event in Elijah’s life (2 Kings 1). Also giving strength to this view is the fact that Moses and Elijah both appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3–4). Further, Jewish tradition expects Moses and Elijah to return, based on the prophecy of Elijah’s coming in Malachi 4:5 and God’s promise to raise up a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18), which some Jews believe necessitates Moses’ return."

If we assumed the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, then they both appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. They would already be with Christ and He is just calling them back. This would be a completely different situation than regular believers in Christ dying and being resurrected.

Now, like I said this is only an assumption, but it could be what happens. Since we don't know for sure, neither you nor I should build any doctrine upon uncertainties.

You can if you want, but I build doctrine upon certainties.

By the way, if we are in Christ and bros in Christ, this should be a respectful conversation. Saying things like "Stay on point, Neo" has a prideful , arrogant, judgmental tone to it. There is no need to say such things. I have heard much worse on this board, but I want to have complete respect in discussions.

Are you OK with this?

But Neo, you are the one that wanted to stay on a point and work it out, lol.

"Stay on point" is a reiteration of your own statement.

But, yes, I am okay with that.

So back to the point: just tell me if you think the Two Witnesses are not raptured. The Rapture is a resurrection in which both living and dead members of the Church are glorified and caught up.

This is what happens to the Two Witnesses before the First Resurrection. It happens at the mid-point of the Triibulation which is determined by the fact that the Two Witnesses cannot be harmed by anyone and then their forty-two month ministry ends when Antichrist kills them. They are raised in glorified bodies and taken up to Heaven.

I am just about out of time for today, so I will get to your responses as I can. But I do think if we go point by point we can come to an understanding.


God bless.
 
Evidently it is about ST Ranger who denies to be that person of Christ as God sent Jesus to show ST what it is to be of Christ and Christian, anointed of God.

Christ like, that is who a Christian is, is like Jesus was in the Father.


No, it is about the Rapture. Just go to the first page and read the OP.


God bless.
 
God compares the lives of everyone to the lives of those in the tribulation. God shows us why we have a genuine faith or not.
BS....

The tribulation saints will not have the indwelling Holy Spirit like you have (and are apparently wasting). They will not be having a resurrection body exactly like the Lord's to whom He only gives to His Bride.
And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory,
are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory,
which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18
You have no idea what that means pertaining to yourself. You keep comparing yourself to the Tribulation saints who will not be offered the same spiritual life those in the Church have been given, and many are wasting in the pursuit of false doctrines.

I must judge myself carefully.
 
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By the way, if we are in Christ and bros in Christ, this should be a respectful conversation. Saying things like "Stay on point, Neo" has a prideful , arrogant, judgmental tone to it. There is no need to say such things. I have heard much worse on this board, but I want to have complete respect in discussions.
Relax... and stop trying to set the terms for in which your false doctrines are to be presented.

Jesus called Peter "Satan?" Did he not?

And, later told his disciples to love one another as he had loved them.

God sends our way "pride pricks" to see how we get our feathers ruffled.

Respect for one not respecting the Lord? One insisting upon what is false? We are to be respectful?

Respect would be an endorsement. Respect is an endorsement.
 
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