Got ya. Here is how I do it, God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise. As far as articulating goes I do it this way " if I can't dazzle them with my brilliance I baffle them with my bull".Thanks for the suggestions. I am quite sure that I have studied scripture and have a fair understanding of the limits of mans autonomy. I typically ask questions as a tool for teaching and or learning how well an individual can articulate what they profess.
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I think it would be best to study this out yourself, then chose. rather than take anyone's word for it. Then you make your choice.
It's like a road sign with the word Choose and arrows pointing left and right. You think it over then you will have what is known as dual ability.
This means not only having the ability to freely will an action (the first condition), but more pertinently, having the ability to freely refrain from willing the action altogether.
It's like, suppose that I had a choice to choose between option A or option B, and in the end, I choose option A. According to dual ability, although I chose option A over B, I could have just as easily refrained from choosing A, willed to choose B, or at the very least, refrained from choosing either, even if all the circumstances were the same. For this reason, if dual ability does exist, then it is equally sufficient to demonstrate and identify that libertarian freedom must exists, as well.
Copyright © 2022 Geoffrey D. Robinson
Does God Love All or Some?
Comparing Biblical Extensivism and Calvinism’s Exclusivism by Ronnie W. Rogers
Grace Faith Free Will - Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism and Arminianism by Robert E. Picirilli
Thanks for the suggestions. I am quite sure that I have studied scripture and have a fair understanding of the limits of mans autonomy. I typically ask questions as a tool for teaching and or learning how well an individual can articulate what they profess.
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Ya…I picked up on that.I understand that, and in a CONSENTUAL "teacher-student" relationship, it can be very effective.
Unfortunately, here at CARM everyone considers them the "teacher", and they want to ask the questions, and not give the answers. Sadly, the result is that nothing is accomplished, but people asking questions at each other, none answering them, and people accusing each other of "dodging" the questions.
If you Arminians and free willers actually believe belief comes before regeneration then why do you pray like a Calvinist?Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
Did that address anything he statedIf you Arminians and free willers actually believe belief comes before regeneration then why do you pray like a Calvinist?
Try being consistent with your beliefs. Practice praying like an Arminian. Bet ya can’t. ?
Just sayin.
Why don't you practice what you preach and evangelize as a Calvinist
touting total inability, unconditional election and absolute predestination
Oh so then you agree Calvinism is not the gospel then?Because those aren't topics of "evangelism".
You apparently don't understand the difference between "gospel" and "theology".
Did that address anything he stated
Why don't you practice what you preach and evangelize as a Calvinist
touting total inability, unconditional election and absolute predestination
Bet you can't
Oh so then you agree Calvinism is not the gospel then?
Anti-Calvinists hate the Calvinism so much that they make themselves enemies of Christ.
You want us to "poison the well" by presenting Calvinism when we present the gospel, to turn them away from Calvinism. But that won't turn them away from Calvinism, that would turn them away from CHRISTIANITY. Is that what you really want?
That is Calvinists acting like Arminians when preaching the gospelNeither is Arminianism.
The gospel doesn't include the specifics of soteriology.
Arminians and Calvinists proclaim the same gospel.
I'm sorry that you're ignorant of that.
Interesting. Are you saying preaching Calvinism would turn people away Christianity?
That is Calvinists acting like Arminians when preaching the gospel
but i am glad you affirm Calvinism is not the gospel
The cross belongs in the gospel1Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2Cor. 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?
He said we act like Arminians when we preach. Can you imagine listening to them praying for lost loved ones?Nope.
We're acting like Calvinists, and like Christ, when preaching the gospel.
Please cease MISREPRESENTING us.
Arminianism isn't the gospel either.
You are VERY confused.
The cross belongs in the gospel
Calvinism not so much
but your comments do not really appear to address the following
Interesting. Are you saying preaching Calvinism would turn people away Christianity?
He said we act like Arminians when we preach. Can you imagine listening to them praying for lost loved ones?
”Father, I have a precious sister who is lost. I pray that you move her in a way that saves her, but doesn’t violate her free will. I know You are a good God who does not desire any perish, so please save her, but in a way she freely exercises her free will.”
I truly believe they pray like Calvinists when they pray.
You're wrong.
That dies not sound like truthYou never answer MY questions, why should I answer yours?
Double standards much?
your wordsIf you can't quote me saying something, then do NO suggest I believe it.
Double standards much?