Making God the author of sin

Then own it

In your theology God is not holy, not loving or not just

He is as an arsonist who starts fires so that he may save a few while many are lost

I don’t have to “own” your false conclusion just because you can not understand these concepts. Your false conclusion does not follow.

 
No, in our theology God is PERFECTLY Holy, loving, and just.
In fact, He is FAR more holy, loving, and just, than in YOUR theology.

The definition of Holy does not include the idea to planning, determining and causing sin as a part of its definition

Determining the majority of mankind to damnation before they were ever born is not loving

It's not just either

thus it misrepresents God who is holy, loving and just
 
The definition of Holy does not include the idea to planning, determining and causing sin as a part of its definition

Determining the majority of mankind to damnation before they were ever born is not loving

It's not just either

thus it misrepresents God who is holy, loving and just

I'm sorry, but your unsubstantiated claims are simply wrong.
And I think I understand my beliefs better than you understand my beliefs (since you don't hold them).
 
The definition of Holy does not include the idea to planning, determining and causing sin as a part of its definition

Determining the majority of mankind to damnation before they were ever born is not loving

It's not just either

thus it misrepresents God who is holy, loving and just

God knew the exhaustive results of his own actions…

 
I'm sorry, but your unsubstantiated claims are simply wrong.
And I think I understand my beliefs better than you understand my beliefs (since you don't hold them).
I know what Calvinism teaches even if you will not face it

There are plenty of quotes floating about to confirm it
 
I don’t have to “own” your false conclusion just because you can not understand these concepts. Your false conclusion does not follow.
Show how it does not follow

LOL… Show how what I stated is inaccurate with Scripture…

God knew the results of creating Lucifer before creating him.
Bottom line God took an action by Creating Lucifer when, where, and how he chose to create him all the while knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God created Adam when, where, and how he did knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God created the forbidden tree when, where, and how he did knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God holds all of them responsible for the results God knew his own actions would cause.

God could have determined any number of different outcomes by taking a different action at many different points but chose to meticulously orchestrate all things exactly as he did knowing the results all along the way.

Neither Lucifer nor Adam could have “possibly avoided” Gods known results of his own actions.

God is the only one who could have determined differently and he chose not to.



Now add in the fact that once you realize that Gods known results cannot even occur apart from the power of God, then you have no argument. To shy away from this is to commit to a form of deism, and the idea that there are other self-sustained powers ultimately at work in the universe.

Lastly, if Heb 1:3 is true and God upholds your existence moment by moment, then he must choose to exert the power necessary for you to continue to exist in the next moment, even while Satan and Adam sin. Therefore God is determining that such things occur by choosing to exert such power.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”


You can imagine all sorts of ways around this Truth but without justification it simply remains your imagination!


CCP
…and…
And I do not shy away from it. As I have stated many times before…

God is the author of All Things including the occurrence of what God himself has defined as sin.

God Planned, Purposed, and Determined all things including those acts that are described as “Sin” by God’s own definition.



“For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners” (Rom 5:19)

God could have chose that you be “made sinner” by your own disobedience but instead determined that “the many” be “made sinners” by one man’s disobedience.

God knew the results of his own actions and chose to act anyway.



Yes just like he punished Pharaoh after God hardened his heart “so that” Pharaoh would disobey…

Even the case of Pharaoh being “made sinner” can be traced back to to the “one man’s disobedience”.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you (who have been made sinner by one man’s disobedience) up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”” (Rom 9:17)

“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.” (Psa 58:3)


All traced back to God’s known results of his meticulous orchestration of Lucifer, Adam, and Eve and the forbidden tree in the Garden.

God knew the exhaustive results of his own actions…

P.S. At minimum God could have made the forbidden fruit look grotesque to Eves eyes and yet God knew the results of making it a “delight to her eyes” if it was ever pointed out for her to consider eating. Gen 3:6

If you can not articulate an error in my post and it is found to be accurate and God is not Evil…

…then the only logical conclusion left is that your conclusion is in error due to your lack of understanding these issues.

 
I would use words from the Bible. God Creates Evil. I know we can debate about the Evil/Calamity thing, but for now it looks like y'all want to talk about Evil; not Calamity. If we did switch to discussing Calamity, that's almost as Bad because it's confirmed that God Causes Calamity. We could talk about Jesus asking if those who died in the Tower of Siloam were worse Sinners than those he was talking to. Jesus implied that God Caused that Calamity...

Like I said, I'm not interested in getting into any nuances regarding Evil in Calamity; because y'all are talking God and him Causing 'RA" Evil. So let's suppose the Verse says God Creates Evil; what's wrong with God telling us he Creates Evil? If it's Calamity, how many people we would call Innocent died at the Twin Towers on 911? Toddlers died. That's a Calamity; right? If not, is there a lesser word for it than Evil or Calamity? Probably not; perhaps you would call it an perverse Evil event. Certainly regarding the Terrorists, right? IF God was involved in any way, all that's left is to call it a Calamity he Created. Maybe we could say that God was caught by surprise and left those people to their own devices. Or it didn't catch God by surprise and he 'allowed' it in his Providence; no matter how weak you say his Providence is...

Did God Create the Calamity of the fall of the Tower of Siloam?

You're going off on bunny trails that look like they're evading the question.

There is only two answers to the question, does God create ALL evil or SOME evil?

Is it ALL?

Or is it SOME?
 
You're going off on bunny trails that look like they're evading the question.

There is only two answers to the question, does God create ALL evil or SOME evil?

Evil is not a “created” thing. It is a mere description of actions that occurs on the Storyline level.

Falsely assuming that Sin/Evil is a created thing either by God or by creatures is the reason people come to false conclusions.

Is it ALL?

Or is it SOME?


Again… Since lying and stealing are descriptions of actions, they do not “originate” as if created. Sin is not a created thing. It is a description of disobedience to God’s law. It is not “created” by God or by us.

Therefore, God can be the metaphysical cause of sinful actions (and thoughts), in fact, these sinful things cannot even occur apart from God’s power to begin with (Heb 1:3, Acts 17:28).

So, when God causes someone to have a sinful thought, the person is indeed having a sinful thought. Causation deals with metaphysics. Sin deals with laws. There is no law for God that says “thou shalt not cause sin”.

At the end of the day, once you realize that actions described as sin cannot even occur apart from the power of God, then you have no argument. To shy away from this is to commit to semi-deism, and the idea that there are other self-sustained powers ultimately at work in the universe “creatingthings out of nothing. Again Sin/Evil is not a “createdthing!

Lastly, if Heb 1:3 is true and God upholds your existence moment by moment, then he must choose to exert the power necessary for you to continue to exist in the next moment, even while you act. Therefore God is determining that such described actions occur by choosing to exert such power.

 
LOL… Show how what I stated is inaccurate with Scripture…


…and…


If you can not articulate an error in my post and it is found to be accurate and God is not Evil…

…then the only logical conclusion left is that your conclusion is in error due to your lack of understanding these issues.

Quite simply God does not determine all sin

James 1:13 (AV) — 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 John 2:16 (AV) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 32:35 (AV) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Isaiah 30:1 (AV) — 1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

Galatians 5:7–8 (AV) — 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (AV) — 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (AV) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Articulating your error is easy
 
I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,
Why would someone follow someone named John Calvin when they can follow the ways of Jesus in the father themselves just as Jesus was in the Father?

For me Jesus had it right!
 
Why would someone follow someone named John Calvin when they can follow the ways of Jesus in the father themselves just as Jesus was in the Father?

For me Jesus had it right!
I guess you will have to ask someone who does follow Calvin
 
Quite simply God does not determine all sin
You can not escape even the mere fact that God created knowing that “all sin” would be the result of his own action. God determining to take that action is what ultimately determined the known results of that action.

Heb1:3 is simply proof that God is also necessary for all action, described as sin, after his act of creation.

Your pointing to Storyline level outplay of the very things that can not come to pass apart from God choosing to exert the power to bring them to pass in the first place does not even touch the issue.

Articulating your error is easy

Yet you will not even touch my post to address anything I said so as to demonstrate how anything I stated is in error because you can not… here again for your convenience…


God knew the results of creating Lucifer before creating him.
Bottom line God took an action by Creating Lucifer when, where, and how he chose to create him all the while knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God created Adam when, where, and how he did knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God created the forbidden tree when, where, and how he did knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God holds all of them responsible for the results God knew his own actions would cause.

God could have determined any number of different outcomes by taking a different action at many different points but chose to meticulously orchestrate all things exactly as he did knowing the results all along the way.

Neither Lucifer nor Adam could have “possibly avoided” Gods known results of his own actions.

God is the only one who could have determined differently and he chose not to.



Now add in the fact that once you realize that Gods known results cannot even occur apart from the power of God, then you have no argument. To shy away from this is to commit to a form of deism, and the idea that there are other self-sustained powers ultimately at work in the universe.

Lastly, if Heb 1:3 is true and God upholds your existence moment by moment, then he must choose to exert the power necessary for you to continue to exist in the next moment, even while Satan and Adam sin. Therefore God is determining that such things occur by choosing to exert such power.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”


You can imagine all sorts of ways around this Truth but without justification it simply remains your imagination!


CCP
 
God Creates Evil. God Causes Calamity.
Jesus implied that God Caused that Calamity...

So let's suppose the Verse says God Creates Evil; what's wrong with God telling us he Creates Evil?
IF God was involved in any way, all that's left is to call it a Calamity he Created.

Did God Create the Calamity of the fall of the Tower of Siloam?

What if “Evil” is merely a description of Storyline Level actions within the Calamity that God created/caused?

 
You can not escape even the mere fact that God created knowing that “all sin” would be the result of his own action. God determining to take that action is what ultimately determined the known results of that action.

Heb1:3 is simply proof that God is also necessary for all action, described as sin, after his act of creation.

Your pointing to Storyline level outplay of the very things that can not come to pass apart from God choosing to exert the power to bring them to pass in the first place does not even touch the issue.



Yet you will not even touch my post to address anything I said so as to demonstrate how anything I stated is in error because you can not… here again for your convenience…
You did not address the verses which show God did not determine everything

Why not?

You do not get to dismiss scripture by calling it a storyline; that is just unbelief masquerading as something else

God does not determine all sin

James 1:13 (AV) — 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 John 2:16 (AV) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 32:35 (AV) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Isaiah 30:1 (AV) — 1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

Galatians 5:7–8 (AV) — 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (AV) — 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (AV) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
 
You did not address the verses which show God did not determine everything

If by "address" you mean, "respond to Tom with a response that he will accept", we have no obligation to do so. And such a task is impossible, since you refuse to accept the truth.

So please take the big fat ugly chip of your shoulder.
It's not a good look on you.


We've considered ALL the verses you have provided them, studied their context, and have determined that they are not problematic with Calvinism.

And if you don't like that, then TOUGH LUCK.


Because you refuse to accept the truth, insult us, and then proclaim a worthless "victory" for yourself. And frankly, we have better things to do with our time.

You do not get to dismiss scripture by calling it a storyline; that is just unbelief masquerading as something else

Nobody has "dismissed" Scripture except for YOU.

God does not determine all sin

James 1:13 (AV) — 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 John 2:16 (AV) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 32:35 (AV) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Isaiah 30:1 (AV) — 1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

Galatians 5:7–8 (AV) — 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (AV) — 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (AV) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Thank you for Scripture.
We have determined that your OPINION and INTERPRETATION of them is wrong.
Have a nice day!
 
You did not address the verses which show God did not determine everything

Why not?

Because you were asked to address my post first and this is simply your avoidance tactic so that you do not have to justify your false claim about my post.


Again for your convenience…
God knew the results of creating Lucifer before creating him.
Bottom line God took an action by Creating Lucifer when, where, and how he chose to create him all the while knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God created Adam when, where, and how he did knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God created the forbidden tree when, where, and how he did knowing the results of God’s own actions.

God holds all of them responsible for the results God knew his own actions would cause.

God could have determined any number of different outcomes by taking a different action at many different points but chose to meticulously orchestrate all things exactly as he did knowing the results all along the way.

Neither Lucifer nor Adam could have “possibly avoided” Gods known results of his own actions.

God is the only one who could have determined differently and he chose not to.



Now add in the fact that once you realize that Gods known results cannot even occur apart from the power of God, then you have no argument. To shy away from this is to commit to a form of deism, and the idea that there are other self-sustained powers ultimately at work in the universe.

Lastly, if Heb 1:3 is true and God upholds your existence moment by moment, then he must choose to exert the power necessary for you to continue to exist in the next moment, even while Satan and Adam sin. Therefore God is determining that such things occur by choosing to exert such power.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”


You can imagine all sorts of ways around this Truth but without justification it simply remains your imagination!


CCP
 
You did not address the verses which show God did not determine everything

Why should we believe they "show" any such thing?

God does not determine all sin

James 1:13 (AV) — 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "tempt" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

1 John 2:16 (AV) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Jeremiah 32:35 (AV) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, do you remember our response the last TEN times you brought it up? Why do you want to waste everyone's time asking a question that we have answered (and that you reject), just so we can waste our time answering it again, and you waste your time rejecting it again?

Isaiah 30:1 (AV) — 1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "counsel" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

Galatians 5:7–8 (AV) — 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "persuade" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

1 Corinthians 14:33 (AV) — 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "confuse" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

1 Corinthians 10:13 (AV) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "tempt" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)


A big fat goose egg.
Or rather SEVEN big fat goose eggs.
You've "proved" nothing.
 
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