The foundation of all salvation.

fltom said:
faith is a necessary cause of salvation


Josheb You have yet to evidence that with any explicit statement found in scripture. You have been asked to do exactly that for more than a week and have uniformly failed to do just that or acknowledge it cannot be done. What you have done instead is demonstrate exactly what I said happens: the inferential reading of proof-texting that ignores what is in fact explicitly stated.

False the verses are below

your only response is "no they don't"

Bald denial Josheb that is all you offer

The following is an example:
fltom said:
as you cannot be saved without it according to God's design

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 John 5:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

God alone is the necessary and sufficient cause of Life

BTW you never did answer the question how does one entrust oneself to another without volition

Josheb
Not a single scripture quoted actually states, "Faith is a necessary cause of salvation"!!!!!

The fact that those who do not believe cannot be saved does so quite easily

Did you address a single verse?

Can one show one can be saved without faith

We know you did not even try

No it is not is not a rebuttal Josheb






Josheb
In an attempt to disprove what I posted pages ago you've paradoxically proved it so.


Your denial of the obvious only proves you will not accept truth. You did not address a single verse,

Can you be saved without faith?

Is there a single verses which states you can?

Certainly you have not produced one

It appears you frame your argument and expect thebible will answer in the manner you choose or you will not consider what theverses do say

Sorry Josheb but no they don't is not an argument





Josheb
Under other, more ordinary circumstances, we (the posters in collective assembly in this op) might be able to discuss how and why it is synergists make their case inferentially without a foundation of explicit scripture but that won't be happening with you. You don't seem capable. Want to prove otherwise? Then just answer the question asked.

There were many. you just ignored them and claimed no they don't

In fact that has been your methodology in every single post

Don't consider what the verses state just note they do not iuse the language in the manner you framed

That is not sound argumentation Josheb




Josheb
Can I be provided with an explicit example in scripture of scripture itself ever explicitly stating any causal relationship between the unregenerate's volition and his own salvation, and if there is no such verse will that absence be acknowledged?

You ignored the question you were asked Josheb

Can you entrust yourself to something or someone without an act of the will?

no answer was forthcoming but then you have provided no answers to any of the scriptures


and A bald No they don't is not credible argumentation

four verses were given i could have given more but you would not address those either


John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 John 5:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

those who believe are saved

those who do not believe are not saved

that in itself shows the causal necessity of faith

Only someone who has a need to avoid this fact will deny it

but that is what you have done
 
False the verses are below

your only response is "no they don't"

Bald denial Josheb that is all you offer

The following is an example:




The fact that those who do not believe cannot be saved does so quite easily

Did you address a single verse?

Can one show one can be saved without faith

We know you did not even try

No it is not is not a rebuttal Josheb









Your denial of the obvious only proves you will not accept truth. You did not address a single verse,

Can you be saved without faith?

Is there a single verses which states you can?

Certainly you have not produced one

It appears you frame your argument and expect thebible will answer in the manner you choose or you will not consider what theverses do say

Sorry Josheb but no they don't is not an argument





Josheb
Under other, more ordinary circumstances, we (the posters in collective assembly in this op) might be able to discuss how and why it is synergists make their case inferentially without a foundation of explicit scripture but that won't be happening with you. You don't seem capable. Want to prove otherwise? Then just answer the question asked.

There were many. you just ignored them and claimed no they don't

In fact that has been your methodology in every single post

Don't consider what the verses state just note they do not iuse the language in the manner you framed

That is not sound argumentation Josheb






You ignored the question you were asked Josheb

Can you entrust yourself to something or someone without an act of the will?

no answer was forthcoming but then you have provided no answers to any of the scriptures


and A bald No they don't is not credible argumentation

four verses were given i could have given more but you would not address those either


John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 John 5:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

those who believe are saved

those who do not believe are not saved

that in itself shows the causal necessity of faith

Only someone who has a need to avoid this fact will deny it

but that is what you have done
We missed where it is written faith is a necessary condition.

Where does anyone deny volition??
 
We are the true Sola Scripturists...

All Scripture is Good for Doctrine...
I have a question Rev. I have been looking and can not seem to find a place in scripture where faith is commanded? Not by or through faith but is actually a command similar to 1 John 3:23 dealing with belief. I figured you would know if anyone would.
 
I have a question Rev. I have been looking and can not seem to find a place in scripture where faith is commanded? Not by or through faith but is actually a command similar to 1 John 3:23 dealing with belief. I figured you would know if anyone would.
I like Andrew Fuller's 'Duty Faith'; it is the duty of All to Savingly Believe. This is linked to the First Commandment. Thou shalt have no gods before me, means that thou shalt HAVE God. The negative is seen in not making Idols to worship them, so it would be a Tautology for the First Commandment to also be a negative regarding worshipping False gods. The First Commandment means you shall have the God of the Bible as the 'Most High God'; before All others who may be so-called gods like Man...

I believe the First Commandment was to believe the Gospel of their Day. If so, it is still a Commandment to believe the Gospel of our Day. There may or may not be a Verbatim Verse in the New Testament that Commands everyone to believe the Gospel; maybe an argument for that could be made. But Theologically speaking, I think it's a universal Commandment of God to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Go and make Disciples of All Nations...

Thou shalt have no other God before the LORD Jesus Christ...
 
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I like Andrew Fuller's 'Duty Faith'; it is the duty of All to Savingly Believe. This is linked to the First Commandment. Thou shalt have no gods before me, means that thou shalt HAVE God. The negative is seen in not making Idols to worship them, so it would be a Tautology for the First Commandment to also be a negative regarding worshipping False gods. The First Commandment means you shall have the God of the Bible as the 'Most High God'; before All others who may be so-called gods like Man...

I believe the First Commandment was to believe the Gospel of their Day. If so, it is still a Commandment to believe the Gospel of our Day. There may or may not be a Verbatim Verse in the New Testament that Commands everyone to believe the Gospel; maybe that argument could be made. But Theologically speaking, I think it's a universal Commandment of God to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Thou shalt have no other God before the LORD Jesus Christ...
Thanks. But you can believe it as fact and not have faith right? The devils believe and tremble. So in some sense faith and belief are not the same but in some sense they are. You can believe and not have faith yet you cannot not believe yet have faith. Am I missing something??
 
I have a question Rev. I have been looking and can not seem to find a place in scripture where faith is commanded? Not by or through faith but is actually a command similar to 1 John 3:23 dealing with belief. I figured you would know if anyone would.
Mark 11:22 (EMTV) So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God.

John 14:1 (EMTV) Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

But, both of these were spoken to Jesus' disciples.
 
Thanks. But you can believe it as fact and not have faith right? The devils believe and tremble. So in some sense faith and belief are not the same but in some sense they are. You can believe and not have faith yet you cannot not believe yet have faith. Am I missing something??
I agree...

I had to come to the conclusion that he who promised is Faithful. I struggled with wondering if my Faith is real. The other side often says a Calvinist can't have Security because they can't know they're Elect, but that never made sense to me. This places the need to know you are Elect, before you can have Faith. I don't know that I'm Elect; but I know that he who promised all we need is Faith the size of a mustard seed, he is Faithful to carry out his Promise...

Sola Christus!
 
Thanks. But you can believe it as fact and not have faith right? The devils believe and tremble. So in some sense faith and belief are not the same but in some sense they are. You can believe and not have faith yet you cannot not believe yet have faith. Am I missing something??
Faith and belief are synonyms; however, the underlying Greek word, like the English words, has a semantic range (a range of possible meanings), from mere mental assent, to unshakeable conviction and trust.
 
Mark 11:22 (EMTV) So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God.

John 14:1 (EMTV) Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

But, both of these were spoken to Jesus' disciples.
Thanks. In the Greek some translators would translate that as have faith from God or have the faith of God.
 
Thanks. In the Greek some translators would translate that as have faith from God or have the faith of God.
Have "the faith of God" could be either a subjective, or objective, genitive. A subjective genitive would mean "God's faith"; an objective genitive would mean "the faith of which God is the object" (i.e. faith in God). Most translators believe that it's an objective genitive, in Mark 11:22, except some WoF teachers (ugh!) and a few others.
 
Have "the faith of God" could be either a subjective, or objective, genitive. A subjective genitive would mean "God's faith"; an objective genitive would mean "the faith of which God is the object" (i.e. faith in God). Most translators believe that it's an objective genitive, in Mark 11:22, except some WoF teachers (ugh!) and a few others.
It seems opinions vary and any of the three translations would be acceptable. The literal translation is "have the faith of God" and faith could be faithfulness. Interesting for sure. Thanks for your help
 
Have "the faith of God" could be either a subjective, or objective, genitive. A subjective genitive would mean "God's faith"; an objective genitive would mean "the faith of which God is the object" (i.e. faith in God). Most translators believe that it's an objective genitive, in Mark 11:22, except some WoF teachers (ugh!) and a few others.
Mark 11:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Have faith in God (ἐχετε πιστιν θεου [echete pistin theou]). Objective genitive θεου [theou] as in Gal. 3:26; Rom. 3:22, 26. That was the lesson for the disciples from the curse on the fig tree so promptly fulfilled. See this point explained by Jesus in Matt. 21:21 which see for “this mountain” also.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Mk 11:22.
 
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