Circular Reasoning

Stella1000 said:
What was the point of His using Apostles who taught by His authority if there was no need for a living, teaching Church on earth?
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You do realize, I hope, that questions are not valid arguments?

We have a living church.
It's simply not Rome.
And it's not defined by Rome's arbitrary qualifications.

Now, it would be nice if you would once in your life try to DEFEND the RCC (which is the purpose of this forum) instead of constantly dodging and derailing everything to put Protestants on the defensive.

Unless you want to admit that Romanism is indefensible?
 
Stella1000 said:
On the other hand, what you don't seem to get is that in citing the Churchs teaching on the Scriptures, you are citing a living authority ordained with discernment,by Chris, . So when you read in Scripture a verse that represents diverging views ie Luthers problem with the book of James...

Jas 2 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Surely that faith cannot save, can it? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from works, and I by my works will show you faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is worthless?

... a living authority, a Council of Jerusalem, rules for the sake of unity. That's the Scripture way.
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Martin Luther's well-known formulation, "Scripture and plain reason," is the only basis on which we can properly ground true spiritual discernment. Discernment is the ability to understand, interpret, and apply truth skillfully. Discernment is a cognitive act. Therefore no one who spurns right doctrine or sound reason can be truly discerning.
 
shnarkle said:
Given your claims, what plain reasons or skillfully applied truths can you present for why it is unlawful to wear mixed fibers? What does your cognitive discernment reveal about why it is wrong to seethe a kid in its mother's milk?

I can think of a few reasons why it's a good idea to look back from the plow to see how effectively the plowed rows are spaced for whatever is going to be planted, yet Jesus says those who do this are not fit for the kingdom. What are the sound reasons for this claim?
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You might want to see the truth Jesus is trying to convey in His statement. It wasn't about plowing was it?
 
Stella1000 said:
On the other hand, what you don't seem to get is that in citing the Churchs teaching on the Scriptures, you are citing a living authority ordained with discernment,by Chris, . So when you read in Scripture a verse that represents diverging views ie Luthers problem with the book of James...

Jas 2 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Surely that faith cannot save, can it? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from works, and I by my works will show you faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is worthless?

... a living authority, a Council of Jerusalem, rules for the sake of unity. That's the Scripture way.
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But you don't seem to get the fact that authentic spiritual discernment must begin with Scripture - revealed truth. Without a firm grounding in divine revelation, human reason always degenerates into a denial that anything can be known for certain; or the theory that reason is a source of truth or belief; or in an approach to life that purposely excludes God, - or it could be any number of other anti-Christian philosophies. When Scripture condemns human wisdom (1 Cor. 3:19), it is denouncing not reason per se, but humanistic ideology which is divorced from the divinely -revealed truth of God's Word. Another way of saying this is to simply say that reason apart from the Word of God leads inevitably to unsound ideas, but reason subjected to the Word of God is at the heart of wise spiritual discernment.
 
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RayneBeau said:
Do Roman Catholics purposely choose to ignore the obvious fact that their 'church' thrives on it's constant use of circular reasoning?
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not really, the catholic church rely on both sacred tradition and sacred scripture.

on the other hand, maybe its the protestants for they rely on sacred scripture alone.
 
RayneBeau said:
Martin Luther's well-known formulation, "Scripture and plain reason," is the only basis on which we can properly ground true spiritual discernment. Discernment is the ability to understand, interpret, and apply truth skillfully. Discernment is a cognitive act. Therefore no one who spurns right doctrine or sound reason can be truly discerning.
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Actually, there is a better way, in communion with the Church. This way you 2,000 years of faithful study of Sacred Scripture, not 200 years of ever changing flawed doctrine

JoeT
 
The apostles taught Christ crucified. Salvation is found in no one else. And this is what evangelical Christianity believes. Rc's on the other hand put their faith in the Rc magisterium.

Rc's are always pointing to the Rcc as savior, or mary as savior. But Sacred Scripture points to Jesus alone.
 
RayneBeau said:
Martin Luther's well-known formulation, "Scripture and plain reason," is the only basis on which we can properly ground true spiritual discernment. Discernment is the ability to understand, interpret, and apply truth skillfully. Discernment is a cognitive act. Therefore no one who spurns right doctrine or sound reason can be truly discerning.
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JoeT said:
Actually, there is a better way, in communion with the Church.

JoeT
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what you get from the rcc isn't spiritual discernment given by God. you don't get the truth of His word.

what you do get is a man made religion using perverted scripture here and there as a base - to deceive you.
communion with the rcc is not communion with Christ.

This way you 2,000 years of faithful study of Sacred Scripture,
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you certainly don't get that from the rcc! it doesn't teach even the basics of scripture. if it did then catholics would know them, but catholics don't know them. they show us daily that they don't.

not 200 years of ever changing flawed doctrine
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the rcc has more yrs than that of its ever changing flawed doctrines.

scripture does not change. the rcc perverts the words of scripture.

those who are His believe what is written in scripture. your ccc is not scripture.
 
mica said:
what you get from the rcc isn't spiritual discernment given by God. you don't get the truth of His word.

what you do get is a man made religion using perverted scripture here and there as a base - to deceive you.
communion with the rcc is not communion with Christ.


you certainly don't get that from the rcc! it doesn't teach even the basics of scripture. if it did then catholics would know them, but catholics don't know them. they show us daily that they don't.


the rcc has more yrs than that of its ever changing flawed doctrines.

scripture does not change. the rcc perverts the words of scripture.

those who are His believe what is written in scripture. your ccc is not scripture.
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Spot on. Amen
 
JoeT said:
Actually, there is a better way, in communion with the Church. This way you 2,000 years of faithful study of Sacred Scripture, not 200 years of ever changing flawed doctrine

JoeT
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Yes it is a better way to be in communion with Jesus. To be a member of the RCC is not being in communion with Jesus' Church. Jesus did not establish a bad tree with leaders who are sexually immoral, and that is a sin your leaders excel in.

Your institution only studies some scriptures and it is those it thinks it can manipulate to support its false doctrines. It is not 2000 years old either.
 
A new day said:
The apostles taught Christ crucified. Salvation is found in no one else. And this is what evangelical Christianity believes. Rc's on the other hand put their faith in the Rc magisterium.

Rc's are always pointing to the Rcc as savior, or mary as savior. But Sacred Scripture points to Jesus alone.
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jesus has a body, too.

and that is the church he established in 33ad.
 
ramcam2 said:
believers do not rely on scripture alone?
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Of course they rely on God's words and if something goes against it then it must be rejected. You institution disobeys God by adding to His word, going beyond His word, and taking away/ignoring scripture. That is breaking commandments and as James clearly states you break one commandment, you break them all (James 2:10).

Please tell us what is above God's word? Please show us where God's word states we should believe men over God? You leaders are false teachers and are bad fruit, so it cannot be anything they have written. Of course we can see that the source of the Marian doctrines come for the fake book POJ. I would prefer God's word over the POJ which even lies about who the author is.
 
Misfit said:
False statement. Jesus is the Savior, the Messiah, God Incarnate on this earth as the Catholic Church truthfully teaches.
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Then the RCC falsely claims that Mary is co mediatrix and co advocate, some even want her named co redeemer. That is all lies. OH and the poster was correct,, many RCs have claimed salvation comes through the RCC, which is another false claim.
 
ramcam2 said:
jesus has a body, too.

and that is the church he established in 33ad.
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You have the date wrong and obviously have not thought about what year Jesus was really born in and it wasn't 1AD. So you miscalculate the date of His death. By the way Jesus real body is not a spoiled bad tree which your institution is. You insult Jesus ever time you make out it is His body. You are literally saying Jesus put in your popes that dug up their dead predecessor, had orgies, condoned murder and torture and hid sin.
 
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