Mother Mary

Fine.

YOU need some self-proclaimed guy in a suit who claims to know the Bible and claims God ordained him to teach the Scriptures to tell you what the Scriptures mean. What is more, you need some self-proclaimed people calling themselves "trustees" or "elders" to supervise and boss around the minister based on their whims and that of the congregation who hire and fire him based on those whims.

How is our system any different than yours in this respect, save the guy saying "becasue I said so" wears a suit, not a "dress?"
You really don't get it, do you? NO ONE "tells" me or any other Christian what the Scriptures mean! God sent the Holy Spirit to do that. So your entire post is completely wrong.

John 16:13 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
 
Titus 3:5........ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

You really need some one to explain what that means to you?? Wow!


"Not by works of righteousness which we have done".........your clergy doesn't like that part, do they?
 
Last edited:
Um, yeah, here is the full verse: “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

The Son reveals the Father to all believers. Thus, Mary knows the Father like all believers.
Then, if Mary knows the Father like ALL believers, then that means we are equal to Mary, and there is no reason to pray to her for intercession--Jesus tore down the barrier between Him and us, and we can now go directly to our dear Heavenly Father in prayer, as Jesus taught us, in His own prayer: "Our Father, Who art in heaven..."
 
Last edited:
I fully acknowledge that child molestation has occurred in other churches besides the RCC. HOWEVER, I don't know of ANY church, other than the RCC, that has kept it hidden, allowed it to continue with NO CONSEQUENCES for the offenders, and simply reassigned the molesters to go and do it again!
It has happened in my church body. It happened in my parents' church, in the mid-80's. The vicar tried to molest some children in the catechism class he was teaching. He was arrested and went to jail.

In the late 90's I read in our Synod's monthly newsletter where one of our pastors had been arrested and convicted of molesting a child. He went to jail and our church body defrocked him.

Consequences happened. No cover-ups.
 
Yes, there is typology throughout the OT. God is the author of history so we constantly see typology throughout scripture. Christians dating back to the very early church believed the woman in Genesis 15 to be referring to Mary.
Did the 'early church' believe the woman in Genesis 15 to be referring to Mary, because of their limited human reasoning or was their belief based on the written or spoken Word of God? What is more dependable - God's Word, or unfounded speculation formulated by men?
 
The so called, "truths" wasn't always the actual words of scripture but Luther's interpretation of scripture. So scripture alone isn't really scripture alone.
???
From Catholic.com:
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized.

A "straw man" is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed nor refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
???
From Catholic.com:
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized.

A "straw man" is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed nor refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
And this is what the "dingoling" has repeatedly done.
 
I forgot.....YOU....need some self proclaimed guy in a dress, who claims God gave him un-Bibilical powers to speak inerrantly, to TELL you what Scripture means! ................."I speak for God on Earth! How do you know I speak for God on Earth? Why....because I said so!" ............ Don't you realize how truly silly, and gullible RCs sound?
And the nCCs want us to stop listening to the Pope and Magisterium and listen to what scripture alone says. Put scripture alone doesn't tell us to what scripture alone says. It is a man made doctrine.

Don't you realize how truly silly, and gullible the nCCs sound?
 
???
From Catholic.com:
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized.

A "straw man" is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed nor refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
So you want us to listen to what Luther says and not what scripture says?
 
A "straw man" is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed nor refuted, but instead replaced with a false one:

Fine.

YOU need some self-proclaimed guy in a suit
Suit not needed. Self-proclaimed? ?
who claims to know the Bible and claims God ordained him to teach the Scriptures to tell you what the Scriptures mean.
Nope. There's a lot more to pastoring a flock than teaching the Scriptures. And to do in-depth study of God's Word takes more than reciting rote phrases daily. And reading a ten-minute homily.
What is more, you need some self-proclaimed people calling themselves "trustees" or "elders" to supervise and boss around the minister
And this is worse than the RCC's episcopal form of government how? (You know, ya gotta stop reading them Giacomo Chickolini tracts.) I don't know about other churches, but in the ones I've attended, trustees and/or elders are selected by the congregation, serve for a certain time, and then step down. Oh, and they must meet the criteria set forth by the Scriptures, such as "husband of one wife".
based on their whims and that of the congregation who hire and fire him based on those whims.

How is our system any different than yours in this respect, save the guy saying "becasue I said so" wears a suit, not a "dress?"
(1) "The guy" does not say, "because I said so." He proclaims God's Word, and the congregation can follow - and verify - what he is saying in the Bible. No ex cathedra declarations.
(2) The congregation is Biblically literate enough to verify what he is saying. They can also speak with the pastor if they are not sure of - or even disagree with - what he said. And he should be able to defend his points Scripturally, not just by saying "if you don't believe me, you are anathema!"
(3) There are probably more, but let someone else have some fun, also...

Maybe "costume" would be better than "dress"...

It may also be enlightening for you to examine the different forms of church government, so that you don't sound so silly in the future.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
You really don't get it, do you? NO ONE "tells" me or any other Christian what the Scriptures mean! God sent the Holy Spirit to do that. So your entire post is completely wrong.

John 16:13 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
The Holy Spirit tells me that the Catholic Church's doctrines are correct, the Pope has been given authority and not to listen to the nCCs doctrines. The nCCs haven't been given authority to interpret scriptures for the Christian faith so don't listen to them. Listen to the one that has been given that authority - the Pope/Magisterium.
 
The bathwater was dirty, so the water got thrown out. The baby is fine. God is still on his throne. The same God who spoke the universe into existence rules his church and will not lose any, and they will be raised up on the last day.
I didn't mean, sir, that Luther threw God out.

I meant--the baby is the Church. The bathwater the moral corruption he rightly went after. Luther threw the baby (the Church) out with the bathwater (moral corruption.)
 
The bathwater was dirty, so the water got thrown out. The baby is fine. God is still on his throne. The same God who spoke the universe into existence rules his church and will not lose any, and they will be raised up on the last day.
Good way of putting it, Tert! Luther did not want to leave the church at all--but it left him. It was more interested in keeping its power and wealth, than in preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, from the Bible.
 
There's a lot more to pastoring a flock than teaching the Scriptures. And to do in-depth study of God's Word takes more than reciting rote phrases daily. And reading a ten-minute homily.
Yeah--talk about straw-men.

Protestants threw out the Mass. Power abhors a vacuum. Since Protestants aren't celebrating Mass, but essentially just getting together for an extended Scripture study, which they call worship, teaching filled the void.

Put an other way:

The Mass is a combination of two things: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is the first part of the Mass. The reading of the Gospel is the culmination or high point in the Liturgy of the Word. The Liturgy of the Word takes about half the time of the Mass. Preaching takes place within the context of the Liturgy of the Word where the Scriptures are "broken open." The goal of a homily is not parsing Greek or Hebrew words, academic study, exegesis, etc, but to "break open the Word" that is---to apply the Scriptures to daily life. Catholics would see the academic study of the Scriptures as valuable, but more appropriate to a Scripture or Bible study course taught during the week in the evening.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the second part of the Mass. This culminates with reception of Communion. This takes the other half of the Mass. The Protestant Reformers threw out the Mass. Something had to fill the void. Thus, what a Protestant worship service actually is, from the Catholic vantage point, is just an extended Liturgy of the Word. This is why for Protestants preaching is primary.
And this is worse than the RCC's episcopal form of government how? (You know, ya gotta stop reading them Giacomo Chickolini tracts.) I don't know about other churches, but in the ones I've attended, trustees and/or elders are selected by the congregation, serve for a certain time, and then step down. Oh, and they must meet the criteria set forth by the Scriptures, such as "husband of one wife".

(1) "The guy" does not say, "because I said so." He proclaims God's Word, and the congregation can follow - and verify - what he is saying in the Bible. No ex cathedra declarations.
(2) The congregation is Biblically literate enough to verify what he is saying. They can also speak with the pastor if they are not sure of - or even disagree with - what he said. And he should be able to defend his points Scripturally, not just by saying "if you don't believe me, you are anathema!"
(3) There are probably more, but let someone else have some fun, also...
Yes, the trustees are elected and these are the people in whom ultimate power rests. The minister answers to them. I have played the organ in Baptist churches, Presbyterian and Methodist churches. I have seen how the trustees abused the minister and their wife, and treated them like garbage--over the stupidest things too---like moving a table. I have seen ministers in tears over the trustees treatment of them. I used to wonder why the ministers put up with it. I know if it were me, there is no way the trustees would have gotten away with treating me or a spouse like that. They could take their church and their job and stick it. I used to joke with the ministers that they need to become Catholic.
Maybe "costume" would be better than "dress"...
Well, whatever. The point is that you have no concept of a Mass. Thus, worship for you is not the offering of a Sacrifice, but in essence, nothing more than a Scripture study with hymnody and prayers thrown in for good measure.
 
Last edited:
Good way of putting it, Tert! Luther did not want to leave the church at all--but it left him. It was more interested in keeping its power and wealth, than in preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, from the Bible.
The problem is that Luther did not preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, from the Bible. He established himself as the teaching authority.
 
The problem is that Luther did not preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, from the Bible. He established himself as the teaching authority.
In essence, Luther rejected the authority of the pope and bishops and instead declared himself the pope and bishops all rolled in to one. So Luther in effect, expected people to listen to HIM, not the real pope and bishops.
 
I didn't mean, sir, that Luther threw God out.

We knew you did not.
I meant--the baby is the Church.
Except Luther did not throw out the church--he only wanted to get rid of the filthy water the "baby" had been "bathing" in for centuries--filthy, unbiblical teachings, that twist and pervert the word of God, preaching a fakse Gospel that saves and saved no one.
The bathwater the moral corruption he rightly went after.

That is only half of it, Romish. The bathwater was filthy with the teaching of the false Gospel of Rome, twisted and distorted almost beyond recognition, that your church has been teaching for
centuries and still teaches, to its shame.
Luther threw the baby (the Church) out with the bathwater (moral corruption.)
More baloney from the Catholic deli! It was tbe "baby" that THREW Luther out--it excommunicated him for refusing to recant his beliefs, and kowtow to the pope and magisterium. He stood firmly for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, instead of Rome's distorted version. He obeyed God rather than man, as your supposed first pope said it is better to do.
 
Back
Top