Men, Women, Sex and Gender

[Nedsk]

You're talking about Christianity, right?

I know your mother told you this want possible but youre wrong. She or he was too

 

[Electric Skeptic]

This is a long reply so I'm breaking it up into two posts. Sorry for the length. And just an FYI...you know I'm going to disagree with some of what you say here (certainly not all of it, but some of it), but I do appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. Well done.

Thank you.

This is completely false. DSM-5 absolutely lists gender dysphoria as a mental illness, when accompanied by distress or some other impairment.

See: https://psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

It distinguishes gender dysphoria from incongruence between biological sex and gender identity or expression, the latter of which are not considered mental illnesses. In other words, simply having the incongruence, if it doesn't cause you any problems and you function just fine, is not considered a mental illness. But gender dysphoria, with the associated emotional distress and impairment, absolutely IS considered a mental illness.

From: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255 - "A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association."

I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing out my error and educating me. I had read what I said somewhere; having seen your quote and consulting DSM-V I see that what I stated was wrong.

I agree. For some people it isn't a distressing situation.

Yup. Having a gender identity different from your biological sex does not equate to having gender dysphoria.

In literally every instance where one's mental perception, or "feeling" about objective physical reality differs from that objective physical reality, we label it a mental disorder. Body dysmorphia (a person feels like a part of their body is "wrong" when it is quite normal in fact), lycanthropy (a person feels like they're a raccoon, when they're obviously a human), anorexia (a thin person feels they are fat when quite objectively they are not), paranoia (a feeling or sense that people are out to get me when in fact nobody is)....all examples where a person's mental perception or feeling is incongruent with objective physical reality.

The ONLY case where we make this exception is in the case of transgenderism.

We've already established that DSM-V calls it a mental illness or disorder. The point is that whatever it is (condition, illness, disorder), no effective treatment has been found for it other than the person living as their identified gender.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Ok very good. So two more questions please. "Woman" refers to gender so when a person says they are a woman what does that mean? I know it refers to gender but by declaring themselves as a woman, what is that?

It means that they choose to live and present as a woman.

Second, should people who are biological males but gender women be allowed to compete against biological females regardless if those females are men or women?

A separate, but related, issue. I've given my 'solution' to that issue elsewhere. If you've not seen it, let me know and I'll re-post.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

I know your mother told you this want possible but youre wrong. She or he was too

I do not know what this is supposed to mean.

 

[Nedsk]

It means that they choose to live and present as a woman.

Ok very good. What is that?

A separate, but related, issue. I've given my 'solution' to that issue elsewhere. If you've not seen it, let me know and I'll re-post.

Please if you don't mind could you repost it? I did not see it.

 

[Nedsk]

I do not know what this is supposed to mean.

I know. I don't blame you.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

You are throwing out a number of allied issues along with some fictions. I'll try to address them individually:

- I've not seen anybody state or imply that "everything seems to be just fine and normal with this person psychologically, so clearly it's their otherwise perfectly normal body that must be the problem"

Dude, that's the whole thrust of this movement. It USED to be considered a mental disorder. Either people's mental perceptions are grossly wrong (I mean, how much more wrong can a person be if they're a male and believe they're a female? Especially when that perception leads to an attempted suicide rate of over 45%?), or their mental perceptions are fine and their bodies are wrong (hence the need for all kinds of physical treatments and surgeries)? I mean, you're not paying attention if you don't know that the latter is where this has gone.

- I am against any treatment that comes with long-term harmful effects being given to any minor.

Then you ought to be against basically all the hormone treatments and puberty blockers for teens. Which I would fully be in agreement with you on that, but just know that you run afoul of the trans movement.

- we are talking about transgenderism, not sex-change surgery. Sex-change surgery is a completely separate (but obviously allied) issue.

I agree with that. One can be trans without getting the surgeries and such.

- "totally made up pronouns" - you're aware that every single word in every single language is "totally made up", right? What's the problem with adding some more?

Because words at least generally have some association with something. That round red fruit is an "apple". That thing with four legs that you sit on is a "chair". That feeling that makes you upset is called "anger". Or whatever. They usually refer to something particular. Xhe is an assemblage of letters that has no reference whatsoever.

To follow your logic, we can literally just make anything up without any referent. A kid can come into school and start spouting gobbledygook and the teacher has no right to correct them because "what's the problem with adding some new made up words?"

- biological males competing in women's sport is another (but obviously allied) issue on which I have a different opinion than most of the left. My solution is to completely drop the men's and women's sports categories. Have one category for which only people with two X chromosomes are eligible; the other category is open to everybody.

I like this idea.

It's difficult to address this single statement given my above comments. Obviously our attitudes toward those whose gender identity differs from their biological sex is a work in progress; societal changes always are. I see nothing insane with the steps we are taking toward treating such people in such a way as to minimise their distress.

If you agree that their mental perception of themselves (a man believing he's a woman) is flawed, and if you agree that this flawed perception is, like, pretty grossly wrong (I don't mean gross as in "disgusting"; I mean "grossly" as in "way way WAY" wrong), and if you agree with the reams of data that talk about the massively disproportionately high suicide rate among trans people, then you have to understand it's insane to build systems to accommodate this delusion (there really is no other word for it).

Sadly that is not a common attitude among conservative so-called 'Christians'. Oh, I've no doubt many would say that; their other words and actions belie it.

I agree. It's sad and unfortunate and shouldn't be that way. Trans people shouldn't have to fight for rights. They should be, like with everyone else, standard operating procedure. Just understand that a male identifying as a female doesn't have the "right" to compete in a women's sports division, yet the trans movement would claim that they do. There's the rub.

We've already agreed that it's classed as a mental disorder and I cannot think of a definition of the word 'normal' that would classify it that way. It is abnormal - but so is left-handedness and red-headedness. There is nothing wrong, per se, with being abnormal.

No question there's plenty of abnormalities that there's nothing "wrong" with. But being left handed or having red hair doesn't give one a mental perception completely at odds with objective biological reality, and it doesn't come with an attempted suicide rate of over 45%. THAT is why this needs to be addressed properly.

I think I've addressed this above both in reference to irreversible treatments to those under age and changing attitudes toward the entire issue.


I strongly disagree (with the exception of the sports issue, which I discussed above). It does make you a (gender) woman. I do not know why there is such opposition to the idea of separating sex from gender, chiefly from the conservative so-called 'Christian' community. My suggestions as to why are not complimentary to that community.

But....it really doesn't. It makes you a man who wrongly believes he's a woman, and then acts as if he's a woman.

By the way, in terms of the opposition to this, I'm right now reading a book by Kara Dansky, a renowned feminist. The book is called, "The Abolition of Sex: How the Transgender Agenda Harms Women and Girls". Let me offer you a couple of quotes from what I've read so far.

"The transgender agenda threatens all of these important historical gains and undermines feminists' ability to fight for future goals by insisting the women do not exist as a class of people. That sex is being abolished (in favor of gender classification - my clarification point for you, ES) is bitterly ironic, because feminists - i.e.,e those who work toward the liberation of women and girls as a class of human beings - have been expressly calling for the abolition of gender for decades. As feminist scholar Sheila Jeffreys states, 'transgenderism depends for its very existence on the idea that there is an "essence" of gender, a psychology and pattern of behavior, which is suited to persons with particular bodies and identities. This is the opposite of the feminist view, which is that the idea of gender is the foundation of the political system of male domination.'"

"If 'gender identity' means anything at all, it means conformity with the set of sex-stereotypes that are imposed on the opposite sex - for example, the expectation that women wear high heels. For feminists, liberation entails women breaking free from the societal expectation that women wear high heels. But for gender ideologues, wearing high heels is one of the things that make a person a woman. So today, a man who wears high heels can call himself a woman on that basis. This new form of gender ideology, which grew out of so-called 'queer theory' in academia, is extremely anti-feminist, anti-woman, and politically regressive."

"Many people, conservatives especially, like to argue that feminists are responsible for the abolition of sex by accusing us of making the claim the tmen and women are identical, but this is not true. Feminists have been fighting the concept of gender for decades. No feminist that I am aware of has ever said that when do not exist as a coherent biological and legal category. In fact, it is quite the opposite - feminists know exactly what the category of "women" means (a biological female, as she argues). The ultimate aim of feminism is to liberate women and girls from the cages that imprison us. That the category 'women and girls' does not exist is the central claim of the gender identity industry, not of feminists."


So I mean, it is the feminists that have had some of the strongest push back in the world against transgenderism. And rightly so. They see MEN claiming to be WOMEN, and suddenly winning awards like "woman of the year". How absolutely, incredibly, unfathomably insulting for feminists, and they're rightly mad about it. Never mind in the world of athletics where scholarships and championships are being won by biological males claiming to be women.

Of course Christians don't like this either. But it's not just Christians. Goodness, no.

 

[Nedsk]

Dude, that's the whole thrust of this movement. It USED to be considered a mental disorder. Either people's mental perceptions are grossly wrong (I mean, how much more wrong can a person be if they're a male and believe they're a female? Especially when that perception leads to an attempted suicide rate of over 45%?), or their mental perceptions are fine and their bodies are wrong (hence the need for all kinds of physical treatments and surgeries)? I mean, you're not paying attention if you don't know that the latter is where this has gone.



Then you ought to be against basically all the hormone treatments and puberty blockers for teens. Which I would fully be in agreement with you on that, but just know that you run afoul of the trans movement.



I agree with that. One can be trans without getting the surgeries and such.



Because words at least generally have some association with something. That round red fruit is an "apple". That thing with four legs that you sit on is a "chair". That feeling that makes you upset is called "anger". Or whatever. They usually refer to something particular. Xhe is an assemblage of letters that has no reference whatsoever.

To follow your logic, we can literally just make anything up without any referent. A kid can come into school and start spouting gobbledygook and the teacher has no right to correct them because "what's the problem with adding some new made up words?"



I like this idea.



If you agree that their mental perception of themselves (a man believing he's a woman) is flawed, and if you agree that this flawed perception is, like, pretty grossly wrong (I don't mean gross as in "disgusting"; I mean "grossly" as in "way way WAY" wrong), and if you agree with the reams of data that talk about the massively disproportionately high suicide rate among trans people, then you have to understand it's insane to build systems to accommodate this delusion (there really is no other word for it).



I agree. It's sad and unfortunate and shouldn't be that way. Trans people shouldn't have to fight for rights. They should be, like with everyone else, standard operating procedure. Just understand that a male identifying as a female doesn't have the "right" to compete in a women's sports division, yet the trans movement would claim that they do. There's the rub.



No question there's plenty of abnormalities that there's nothing "wrong" with. But being left handed or having red hair doesn't give one a mental perception completely at odds with objective biological reality, and it doesn't come with an attempted suicide rate of over 45%. THAT is why this needs to be addressed properly.



But....it really doesn't. It makes you a man who wrongly believes he's a woman, and then acts as if he's a woman.

By the way, in terms of the opposition to this, I'm right now reading a book by Kara Dansky, a renowned feminist. The book is called, "The Abolition of Sex: How the Transgender Agenda Harms Women and Girls". Let me offer you a couple of quotes from what I've read so far.

"The transgender agenda threatens all of these important historical gains and undermines feminists' ability to fight for future goals by insisting the women do not exist as a class of people. That sex is being abolished (in favor of gender classification - my clarification point for you, ES) is bitterly ironic, because feminists - i.e.,e those who work toward the liberation of women and girls as a class of human beings - have been expressly calling for the abolition of gender for decades. As feminist scholar Sheila Jeffreys states, 'transgenderism depends for its very existence on the idea that there is an "essence" of gender, a psychology and pattern of behavior, which is suited to persons with particular bodies and identities. This is the opposite of the feminist view, which is that the idea of gender is the foundation of the political system of male domination.'"

"If 'gender identity' means anything at all, it means conformity with the set of sex-stereotypes that are imposed on the opposite sex - for example, the expectation that women wear high heels. For feminists, liberation entails women breaking free from the societal expectation that women wear high heels. But for gender ideologues, wearing high heels is one of the things that make a person a woman. So today, a man who wears high heels can call himself a woman on that basis. This new form of gender ideology, which grew out of so-called 'queer theory' in academia, is extremely anti-feminist, anti-woman, and politically regressive."

"Many people, conservatives especially, like to argue that feminists are responsible for the abolition of sex by accusing us of making the claim the tmen and women are identical, but this is not true. Feminists have been fighting the concept of gender for decades. No feminist that I am aware of has ever said that when do not exist as a coherent biological and legal category. In fact, it is quite the opposite - feminists know exactly what the category of "women" means (a biological female, as she argues). The ultimate aim of feminism is to liberate women and girls from the cages that imprison us. That the category 'women and girls' does not exist is the central claim of the gender identity industry, not of feminists."


So I mean, it is the feminists that have had some of the strongest push back in the world against transgenderism. And rightly so. They see MEN claiming to be WOMEN, and suddenly winning awards like "woman of the year". How absolutely, incredibly, unfathomably insulting for feminists, and they're rightly mad about it. Never mind in the world of athletics where scholarships and championships are being won by biological males claiming to be women.

Of course Christians don't like this either. But it's not just Christians. Goodness, no.

I fear that in the area of sports everything will be dominated by the biological males. What eventually would happen is separation will again occur but the distinctions wil just have different labels. It's all nonsensical.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

The crazy thing is that leftists think that somehow women should be supportive of the trans movement (welcome to the sisterhood of oppressed minorities!!!), but in reality, feminists cannot STAND the trans movement because they rightly recognize that the trans movement is actually putting MEN into women's places and that's putting women in danger. When biological males win women's scholarships and competitions and win "woman of the year" awards....I mean...feminists have a right to be upset. All that work for all those gains....in jeopardy thanks to the trans movement.

 

[Nedsk]

The crazy thing is that leftists think that somehow women should be supportive of the trans movement (welcome to the sisterhood of oppressed minorities!!!), but in reality, feminists cannot STAND the trans movement because they rightly recognize that the trans movement is actually putting MEN into women's places and that's putting women in danger. When biological males win women's scholarships and competitions and win "woman of the year" awards....I mean...feminists have a right to be upset. All that work for all those gains....in jeopardy thanks to the trans movement.

I couldn't agree more. And I started a thread yesterday, I believe, about Meagan Rapinoe being "outraged" that trans athletes arent allowed to compete with biological women. It's Monday boggling.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I couldn't agree more. And I started a thread yesterday, I believe, about Meagan Rapinoe being "outraged" that trans athletes arent allowed to compete with biological women. It's Monday boggling.

How would she feel if her spot on the UNWNT was taken by a biological male? Or if she had a daughter who lost out in an athletic competition to a boy?

And just bigger picture, this feminist who I'm quoting makes such a compelling argument that the trans movement is doing away with biological sex and is emphasizing gender (based on gender roles put forth by society) as the main marker of identity. Which is exactly the OPPOSITE of what feminists have been arguing. THEY have been trying to do away with gender identity as a matter of gender roles and expectations, and towards gender identity as a matter of biological sex. That is...for a feminist, a woman is a biological female, and societal gender expectations be damned. If a woman wants to work in construction, she can. If she wants to play pro basketball, she can. If she wants to wear work boots and a cowboy hat, she can. If she wants to be president of the US or a doctor of a leader of a fortune-500 company, she can. She can dress like a man, look like a man, be whatever else she wants because she's a WOMAN, dammit.

THAT has been the feminist argument, but the trans argument has it exactly backwards. You're a woman if you claim you are. And a woman is, by definition, someone that fits societal gender stereotypes, your biological sex be damned.

It's UNBELIEVABLE that there are any supporters of women's rights that are pro-trans in this way, when you really stop and think about it. It runs completely counter to what the feminist movement is all about. Rapinoe is a dummy.

 

[Nedsk]

How would she feel if her spot on the UNWNT was taken by a biological male? Or if she had a daughter who lost out in an athletic competition to a boy?

And just bigger picture, this feminist who I'm quoting makes such a compelling argument that the trans movement is doing away with biological sex and is emphasizing gender (based on gender roles put forth by society) as the main marker of identity. Which is exactly the OPPOSITE of what feminists have been arguing. THEY have been trying to do away with gender identity as a matter of gender roles and expectations, and towards gender identity as a matter of biological sex. That is...for a feminist, a woman is a biological female, and societal gender expectations be damned. If a woman wants to work in construction, she can. If she wants to play pro basketball, she can. If she wants to wear work boots and a cowboy hat, she can. If she wants to be president of the US or a doctor of a leader of a fortune-500 company, she can. She can dress like a man, look like a man, be whatever else she wants because she's a WOMAN, dammit.

THAT has been the feminist argument, but the trans argument has it exactly backwards. You're a woman if you claim you are. And a woman is, by definition, someone that fits societal gender stereotypes, your biological sex be damned.

It's UNBELIEVABLE that there are any supporters of women's rights that are pro-trans in this way, when you really stop and think about it. It runs completely counter to what the feminist movement is all about. Rapinoe is a dummy.

She is a dummy and has betrayed the young girls and women who have looked up to her. I suspect she got to the level she did because she didn't often have to compete with biological males to get there. She has stolen that from other young ladies.

 

[Furion]

They obviously don't.

It is obvious they don't believe what you are selling..

You confuse that with not understanding you. Such a conundrum you are in. You can act like all these dummies cannot see your superior knowledge.

Funny stuff.

You are confusing the intent of the OP. It is not about the law; it is about gender identity and an attempt to explain it to and for the people whose questions repeatedly demonstrate that they do not know what it is.

Nobody buys that stupidity.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Here, maybe this will help

When you gather with the gay and tranny friends, talk all your gay talk, pronouns and labels. All that good stuff.

No one else cares if you keep it among yourselves.

Try to force all the other rational people to submit to your stuff, then expect to be told your're an idiot, or some such.

Hopefully that's clear for you.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

She is a dummy and has betrayed the young girls and women who have looked up to her. I suspect she got to the level she did because she didn't often have to compete with biological males to get there. She has stolen that from other young ladies.

When the USWNT played a team of U-15 boys from Dallas, the boys whipped them 5-2. LOL

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Feminists are trying to do away with gender distinctions and expectations and identities and focus on biological sex distinctions. The trans movement does it exactly backward, doing away with sex distinctions in favor of gender expectations and identities.

The natural enemy of the trans movement is the feminist movement, not the Christian movement.

 

[Nedsk]

When the USWNT played a team of U-15 boys from Dallas, the boys whipped them 5-2. LOL

I heard that before but is that really true?

 

[Nedsk]

Feminists are trying to do away with gender distinctions and expectations and identities and focus on biological sex distinctions. The trans movement does it exactly backward, doing away with sex distinctions in favor of gender expectations and identities.

The natural enemy of the trans movement is the feminist movement, not the Christian movement.

I don't get the end goal though. What's the point?

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I heard that before but is that really true?

Yes. It was a youth club team associated with the Dallas MLS franchise. So it’s not like it was a bunch of random kids. But still. 5-2, the boys beat the USWNT.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I don't get the end goal though. What's the point?

End goal for whom? The trans folks? Freedom and acceptance of whatever they want to be and do.

 

[Nedsk]

Yes. It was a youth club team associated with the Dallas MLS franchise. So it’s not like it was a bunch of random kids. But still. 5-2, the boys beat the USWNT.

Lol hilarious