Theo1689
Well-known member
"buried 6 feet under"?
Can't y'all just feel all the love, charity, compassion, and especially the humility?
And not a speck of boastfullness to be found!
1John 5:1 regeneration before faith
- Thread starter Theo1689
- Start date
"buried 6 feet under"?
Can't y'all just feel all the love, charity, compassion, and especially the humility?
And not a speck of boastfullness to be found!
Theo1689
Well-known member
I don't know if you noticed this... But I'm still alive and kicking.
And folks like MacArthur, Begg, and White are still broadcasting.
And I believe Chalc recently posted an article showing that Calvinism has been growing...
Oops!
Theo1689
Well-known member
Theo1689
Well-known member
... except when you want "draw" to merely mean "enable".
Or should that be, "unless" you want it to mean "enable"?
G
guest1
Guest
The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.
Anyone granted eyes to see knows the BIBLICAL order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.
next.................
hope this helps !!!
Anyone granted eyes to see knows the BIBLICAL order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.
next.................
hope this helps !!!
HealTheLand
Active member
"I tell you the truth, if you do not turn
and become as a Child...
you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven"
Last edited:
You left off a bit... except when you want "draw" to merely mean "enable".
Or should that be, "unless" you want it to mean "enable"?
For a simpler version the NIV
but also use many more
but you are still confused
it is not that drawing means enable
but that drawing is how God enables
I believe I told you that already
Had you not understood
And then it cycles back down as it has multiple times
once its teaching are fully understood
David1701
Well-known member
What does that have to do with someone paying the price for you?
By the way, what you quoted is one way of describing repentance, which is a gift from God.
2 Tim. 2:25,26 (EMTV)
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose, if God perhaps may give them repentance, to a full knowledge of the truth,
26 and they regain their senses and escape out of the snare of the devil, having been captured alive by him to do his will.
No need they do not deny the translation
Who stated it was disputed?
sellecting a different word is not the same as disputing another
Attract does not include the idea of irresistibility
The rich young ruler was attracted to Jesus
but that still did not stop him from going away
BTW woo is a synonym for attract
Nope all irresistibly drawn is universalism
You are in denial here
I gave many examples showing that
Nope he is giving those that are his
those that hear and learn from him those that believe him and his word
Conditions
and you are in denial here again
Theo
You already refuted that with your John 8:47 citation.
You better read that again
John 8:43–48 (KJV 1900) — 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
as you have failed to read accurately
Theo1689
Well-known member
I likewise enjoy the irony around his choice of analogies.
And I'm sure you already know this, but what they constantly do is this...
They'll look at John 3:16 and see, "whoever believes in him", and then ASSUME that men naturally have "ability" to believe, even though it's never taught.
They'll look at John 6:44, which ONLY describes the actions of God, and then ASSUME that man has the "ability" not only "to come" of their own accord, but also to choose "not to come", despite the drawing of God.
They ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS assume and project "natural ability and will" onto EVERY Scripture, to preserve their false teaching of "free will".
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
The ESV appears to be excellent as well
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Of course there is a conditional, the word "unless"
An so the positive statement based on what you write is: a man can come once the Father...draws him and I will raise him up on the last day
G
guest1
Guest
You have isolated John 6:44.
John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Above we see everyone who believes in the Son will have eternal life and be raised on the last day.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
So above no one can come unless they are drawn
John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”
And when Jesus Ascends to heaven post Resurrection is when all men/everyone will be drawn.
So John 12:32 is the fulfillment of John 6:44. No one was drawn until Jesus Ascended which began at Pentecost and Jesus promise and commandment of the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20. It began in Jerusalem and spread to the entire world.
hope this helps !!!
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
More and more ppl trippin' o'er their ? I see...
Not assumption
but scripture you never address
Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe
John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”
had men not hardened themselves they could have believed
Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Christ spoke to men in parables to prevent belief
Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”
none of which make any sense with your theology
further were Faith irresistibly given the god of this world would not be able to blind nor could anything interfere
1cor 4:4 and the parable of the sower all make no sense in your theological view
therefore your view is false
Yes I like it as well
They are in the next verse you left off
John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
One must hear and learn
God is not giving unconditionally selected men to Christ but those that are his
John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
There is no unconditional election here
Those that believe the father will believe Christ and come to Christ
John 8:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
and his word wherever it came from
John 5:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 5:32–35 (KJV 1900) — 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
John 5:39–40 (KJV 1900) — 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
unbelief is the reason men do not come to Christ
not because they were not unconditionally selected