Mary as Aeiparthenos; why?

what does your research on it say?

How about Galatians 6:15? "15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation."

IF we are born anew from above, we then become a new creation in Jesus Christ; the old has gone; the new has come! As Paul wrote:

( 2 Cor. 5)

We are a new creation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
these are describing the effect of the sacrament of baptism. the new birth phenomenom (new creation) is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12). these are all the effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being 'born of water and the Spirit' indicating one birth of water and Spirit, rather two different births, one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.
 
not sure about that. a good example is nicodemus, a pharisee, who did not know anything about being 'born again'.
Oh Jesus was being sarcastic in his response to Nicodemus, when you read the Greek. This response also shows a lack of understanding of second temple Judaism. I have posted references before which prove the point, and I will not bother doing it again, because it is obvious RCs just ignore the true facts.
 
Oh Jesus was being sarcastic in his response to Nicodemus, when you read the Greek. This response also shows a lack of understanding of second temple Judaism. I have posted references before which prove the point, and I will not bother doing it again, because it is obvious RCs just ignore the true facts.
start a thread on it... thanks.
 
Bonnie said:
How about Galatians 6:15? "15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation."

IF we are born anew from above, we then become a new creation in Jesus Christ; the old has gone; the new has come! As Paul wrote:

( 2 Cor. 5)

We are a new creation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
these are describing the effect of the sacrament of baptism.
no, not water baptism, but the rebirth.

the new birth phenomenom (new creation) is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12).
Paul is speaking to those who are already believers.

is a physical circumcision done without human hands? heart circumcision is done without the hands of man because it is done by God in the rebirth.

col 2
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


water baptism is the outward showing of what happens to someone in the rebirth. if one has not experienced the rebirth, then they have nothing to show outwardly by a water baptism. they only get wet, but they haven't had their heart changed by God.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

these are all the effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being 'born of water and the Spirit' indicating one birth of water and Spirit, rather two different births, one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.
if they were of water baptism then catholics would have already experienced them. there is no evidence of that by or in catholics.

the rebirth is an act of God, not of man.

and catholics are also disobedient in how they water baptize. in scripture people were completely immersed into water (as they were into Christ by the HS in their rebirth), not sprinkled on the head with it.
 
these are describing the effect of the sacrament of baptism. the new birth phenomenom (new creation) is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12). these are all the effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being 'born of water and the Spirit' indicating one birth of water and Spirit, rather two different births, one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.
But one can be born again without baptism in water. Remember Cornelius and his family and friends? When they heard Peter preach to them about Jesus Christ, the HS came mightily to them, enabling them to speak in tongues and praise God to the heavens--and this was BEFORE they were baptized in water. The HS had already baptized them.

Paul tells us another way we can receive faith in Christ Jesus, in Romans 10:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who [i]bring good news of good things!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

So, faith comes from hearing--or reading--the word of Christ, which is the Gospel message. There are plenty of people who come to faith in Jesus Christ BEFORE being baptized in water.

So, faith can also come from the hearing/reading of the Gospel message. NOT just by water baptism.
 
But one can be born again without baptism in water. Remember Cornelius and his family and friends? When they heard Peter preach to them about Jesus Christ, the HS came mightily to them, enabling them to speak in tongues and praise God to the heavens--and this was BEFORE they were baptized in water. The HS had already baptized them.

Paul tells us another way we can receive faith in Christ Jesus, in Romans 10:


So, faith comes from hearing--or reading--the word of Christ, which is the Gospel message. There are plenty of people who come to faith in Jesus Christ BEFORE being baptized in water.

So, faith can also come from the hearing/reading of the Gospel message. NOT just by water baptism.
what you are referring to are extraordinary circumstances where the effects of the sacrament of baptism (remission of sins) is effected without the usual matter of the sacrament which is water. theologians and the fathers of the church call this the baptism desire which is an example of the two denominated baptism, the other is the baptism of blood. they are not real sacraments (water and spirit) and only made possible when the sacrament of baptism (water and spirit) becomes a physical and moral impossibility.
 
no, not water baptism, but the rebirth.
the sacrament of baptism is water and spirit. this is the rebirth jesus is talking about. there may be other rebirths when the sacrament of baptism becomes a physical and moral impossibility and they are called denominated baptisms. they supply the same grace (remission of sins). examples are the baptism of desire and baptism of blood.

Paul is speaking to those who are already believers.

is a physical circumcision done without human hands? heart circumcision is done without the hands of man because it is done by God in the rebirth.

col 2
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


water baptism is the outward showing of what happens to someone in the rebirth. if one has not experienced the rebirth, then they have nothing to show outwardly by a water baptism. they only get wet, but they haven't had their heart changed by God.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

of course, adults are taught the christian/catholic faith before they receive the sacrament of baptism. for infants, it is the faith of the church as expressed by the parents.
if they were of water baptism then catholics would have already experienced them. there is no evidence of that by or in catholics.

the rebirth is an act of God, not of man.

and catholics are also disobedient in how they water baptize. in scripture people were completely immersed into water (as they were into Christ by the HS in their rebirth), not sprinkled on the head with it.
the Didache...
'After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).
 
mica said:
no, not water baptism, but the rebirth.
the sacrament of baptism is water and spirit. this is the rebirth jesus is talking about. there may be other rebirths when the sacrament of baptism becomes a physical and moral impossibility and they are called denominated baptisms. they supply the same grace (remission of sins). examples are the baptism of desire and baptism of blood.

...
no it isn't. that's been explained here over an over again. no 'wet water' or human hands involved in the rebirth.

read the verses following Jn 3.5, then come back and explain what they mean.
 
mica said:
Paul is speaking to those who are already believers.

is a physical circumcision done without human hands? heart circumcision is done without the hands of man because it is done by God in the rebirth.

col 2
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

water baptism is the outward showing of what happens to someone in the rebirth. if one has not experienced the rebirth, then they have nothing to show outwardly by a water baptism. they only get wet, but they haven't had their heart changed by God.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
ramcam - the sacrament of baptism is water and spirit. this is the rebirth jesus is talking about. there may be other rebirths when the sacrament of baptism becomes a physical and moral impossibility and they are called denominated baptisms. they supply the same grace (remission of sins). examples are the baptism of desire and baptism of blood.
jn 3.5 doesn't mention baptism.

water baptism is not the rebirth.

ramcam - of course, adults are taught the christian/catholic faith before they receive the sacrament of baptism. for infants, it is the faith of the church as expressed by the parents. ...
how does this relate to what I posted?
 
no it isn't. that's been explained here over an over again. no 'wet water' or human hands involved in the rebirth.

read the verses following Jn 3.5, then come back and explain what they mean.
there is water in those verses. i guess you cannot deny the biblical fact that this the only verse that mentions born again.born anew (re-birth)

baptism means washing and what do one normally use for washing.
 
...
the Didache...
'After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).
did Jesus write that or an apostle? which apostle? post supporting scripture.
 
jn 3.5 doesn't mention baptism.

water baptism is not the rebirth.


how does this relate to what I posted?
then, what is the re-birth in john 3: 3-5 if not the sacrament of baptism?

after explaining everything to Nicodemus,... v22 After this, Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judaea, and there he remained with them, baptizing.
 
there is water in those verses. i guess you cannot deny the biblical fact that this the only verse that mentions born again.born anew (re-birth)
yes, I can - it's not a biblical fact. there are others - you should have searched for yourself.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

baptism means washing and what do one normally use for washing.
eph 5.26 kjv - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

what is the Living Water?
 
what you are referring to are extraordinary circumstances where the effects of the sacrament of baptism (remission of sins) is effected without the usual matter of the sacrament which is water. theologians and the fathers of the church call this the baptism desire which is an example of the two denominated baptism, the other is the baptism of blood. they are not real sacraments (water and spirit) and only made possible when the sacrament of baptism (water and spirit) becomes a physical and moral impossibility.
Why is it extraordinary? Because you say so? The HS can come to someone whenever and however He pleases--before or after water Baptism. Water Baptism was certainly not a moral or physical impossibility for them, since they were water baptized after the HS came to them.

My point is that Baptism is not the only way to come to faith--Cornelius et. al. shows us this--but it also comes through the hearing--or reading--of the word of Christ, which is the Gospel message. Again, this is how Cornelius came to faith in Jesus Christ--through hearing the Gospel message from Peter.
 
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