First of all, sorry for the delayed response. I came across this after someone recently posted to it, and started reading through it again. Apparently I read your post back when you posted but chose not to respond to it, but reading it again today something prompted a response in my mind.
Address the points. No need to get your feathers ruffled.
If you do not, then I will assume you cannot.
This rude attitude and triyng to goad me into responding by threatening to claim I can't respond to it likely had something to do with my choice not to respond to you originally, but I'll let it slide for today.
Let's just make this clear, okay? I don't have to respond to you or anyone, if I don't want to. And you do NOT have the right to try to "force" me into a discussion by falsely claiming I "cannot", if I choose not to reply. That's just plain rude, and I have a very difficult time understanding how someone can CLAIM to be a Christian and yet act in this way.
S.T.Ranger said:
I don't see that this is what Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3. Would you point out in John 3 where exactly the Lord states that being born again precedes believing?
First of all, unlike others, I'm not going to assume you've never read the Bible. I'm going to assume you've read the Bible, and that you know very WELL that Jesus never said that to Nicodemus. So you're being INCREDIBLY disingenuous, and you are (sadly) not coming to the table in good faith. But this is also a red herring, since there is no NEED for Jesus to have taught him that. That's theology, and not the gospel. And too many people either don't understand the difference, or else they ignore it.
But I thank you because your loaded question prompted a quick Bible study that I appreciated, and would like to share with others here.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Verse 12 gets quoted a lot in these discussions, but they usually leave out v. 13, cutting John off mid-sentence, which is rude to say the least. And especially since the two verses together relate "believing" with being "born".
It is important to note that "believe" here is a present participle. I'm guessing it was rendered past tense in the ESV because it is the present continuous state of "believing", not a one-time act. (I just checked, and the NET, HCSB, and NASB all render "believe" in the present tense, in accordance with the Greek.)
"[W]ere born" is a perfect participle, which denotes a completed past action with enduring effects into the present. So "were born" is being placed chronologically PRIOR to "believing", according to the verb tenses. If one wanted to believe that believing came prior to being born, one would expect "belief" to be in the perfect, and "born" to be in the present, the exact opposite of what we see in the text, or at least have both in the past, even if this last option is ambiguous. John seemingly wrote this in the WORST possible way if belief truly came before being born again.
And what puts in the nail in the coffin is that John EXPLICITLY emphasizes that being born of God was NOT based on "the will of man", which it certainly WOULD be if it was caused by a "free will" decision to "believe".
At this point, we can continue on to the exchange with Nicodemus.
Let's compare how the passage TRULY reads, with how "Free-willers" WANT it to read:
.
Bible (i.e. Calvinism) | "Free-will-ism" |
John 3:1 Now there was a man
of the Pharisees named Nicodemus,
a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man
came to Jesus by night and said
to him, “Rabbi, we know that you
are a teacher come from God, for
no one can do these signs that you
do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly,
I say to you, unless one
is born again he cannot see the
kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus
said to him, “How can a man be
born when he is old? Can he enter
a second time into his mother’s
womb and be born?” 5 Jesus
answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and
the Spirit, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God. 6 That which
is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that
I said to you, ‘You must be
born again.’ 8 The wind blows
where it wishes, and you hear
its sound, but you do not know
where it comes from or where
it goes. So it is with everyone
who is born of the Spirit.” | John 3:1 Now there was a man
of the Pharisees named Nicodemus,
a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man
came to Jesus by night and said
to him, “Rabbi, we know that you
are a teacher come from God, for
no one can do these signs that you
do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly,
I say to you, unless one
believes, he cannot see the
kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus
said to him, “How can a man believe
when he is old? Can he enter
a second time into his mother’s
womb and believe?” 5 Jesus
answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and
believes, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God. 6 That which
is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that
I said to you, ‘You must
believe.’ 8 The wind blows
where it wishes, and you hear
its sound, but you do know
when you choose to believe.
it goes. So it is with everyone
who is born of the Spirit.” |
.
Isn't it interesting that Jesus doesn't preach like a "free-willer" at all.
Instead of telling Nicodemus to "believe" (an action he can presumably do), Jesus instead tells him, over and over again, "you must BE BORN again", a PASSIVE act done TO a man by someone else, namely by the Holy Spirit.
This is beginnig to get long, and you asked specifically about Jesus and Nicodemus, so I'll end her for now. Perhaps I'll continue this at another time.