How 'bout dis?

Gomer said:
God has COMMANDED the condemned to have faith. What is fair about giving a command that is impossible for the condemned to obey? This is unjust, unfair and not in God's nature to be sadistic as this.

How the Potter fashions the clay depends on how the clay behaves in the Potter's hands, Jer 18:4. If the clay obeys it will be a vessel of honor but if it disobeys (mars) in the Potter's hand it will be a vessel of dishonor (Jer 18:8-10; 2 Tim 2:21).

The context of Rom 9 is Paul proving God was just and righteous in casting off elect people, the Jews. In Rom 9:21 the Potter making two vessels (vessel of dishonor the Jew & vessel of honor the Gentile) from the same lump. The Jews falsely tho't that since they were descendants of Abraham, they had a right to tell the Potter (God) that God must make them vessels of honor and those 'dog' Gentiles must be made vessels of dishonor. Just being physical descendants of Abraham could not make the Jews children of God (Rom 9:7-8) for it takes obedience (Jer 18:8) purging oneself (2 Tim 2:21) to be a vessel of honor. Yet the Jews would not obey God whereas the Gentiles did.


Points:
---Jews had no right to make demands upon God because of their physical birth being descendants of Abraham. (Rom 9:8)
---being made a vessel of honor or dishonor is not capricious or baseless but is conditionally based upon obedience in "turning from evil" Jer 18:8 and 'purging oneself' 2 Tim 2:21.
---the Jews refused to obey thus God was just and righteous in casting them off for their unbelief (Rom 11:23). The Jews unbelief was a result of their own free will choice thus God was just and righteous in casting them off for THEIR own choice. But if the only way the Jews could believe was by God "giving" them belief, then the Jews would have a valid argument against God for casting them off, unjustly making them vessels of dishonor and Paul's whole argument in Rom 9 that God was just and righteous in casting off the Jew is fallacious, illogical and dead.
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Biblically, God has the Right to prepare Vessels of Wrath for Dishonor and Destruction...
 
Gomer said:
God has COMMANDED the condemned to have faith. What is fair about giving a command that is impossible for the condemned to obey?
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Why does God have to be "fair"?

Gomer said:
This is unjust, unfair and not in God's nature to be sadistic as this.
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It is neither "unjust" nor "sadistic".

Gomer said:
How the Potter fashions the clay depends on how the clay behaves in the Potter's hands, Jer 18:4.
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Clay doesn't "behave".
It's inanimate.

Gomer said:
If the clay obeys it will be a vessel of honor but if it disobeys (mars) in the Potter's hand it will be a vessel of dishonor (Jer 18:8-10; 2 Tim 2:21).
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Clay doesn't "obey".
It's inanimate.

Gomer said:
---being made a vessel of honor or dishonor is not capricious or baseless but is conditionally based upon obedience in "turning from evil" Jer 18:8 and 'purging oneself' 2 Tim 2:21.
---the Jews refused to obey thus God was just and righteous in casting them off for their unbelief (Rom 11:23). The Jews unbelief was a result of their own free will choice thus God was just and righteous in casting them off for THEIR own choice. But if the only way the Jews could believe was by God "giving" them belief, then the Jews would have a valid argument against God for casting them off, unjustly making them vessels of dishonor and Paul's whole argument in Rom 9 that God was just and righteous in casting off the Jew is fallacious, illogical and dead.
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This is nothing but unBiblical philosophy.
 
Theo1689 said:
Why does God have to be "fair"?
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He would be unjust if He wasn't.
Theo1689 said:
It is neither "unjust" nor "sadistic".



Clay doesn't "behave".
It's inanimate.
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Obviously the clay represents people. I showed in a prior post from Rom 9 the clay represented Jews and Gentiles. In Jeremiah 18 the clay represents the Jews who were God chosen people whom God loved, yet they would not obey God and turn from God again and again. God had great blessings and honor for Israel but because they continued to disobey they "marred in the hand of the Potter" whereby God could not fashion them into a vessel of honor but made them again unto a vessel of dishonor.

 
Gomer said:
He would be unjust if He wasn't.
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Wrong.
"Fairness" and "justice" are completely different concepts.
God's "justice" is accomplished by Jesus on the cross.
"Fairness" is treating everyone the same, and God has no obligation to do that.
He loved Jacob, but hated Esau.
He treated Moses differently than Pharaoh.
He treated Israel differently than Assyria.

Gomer said:
Obviously the clay represents people. I showed in a prior post from Rom 9 the clay represented Jews and Gentiles. In Jeremiah 18 the clay represents the Jews who were God chosen people whom God loved, yet they would not obey God and turn from God again and again. God had great blessings and honor for Israel but because they continued to disobey they "marred in the hand of the Potter" whereby God could not fashion them into a vessel of honor but made them again unto a vessel of dishonor.
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Clay was chosen precisely BECAUSE it is inanimate.
But instead of accepting that, you use the fact that it represents people to ASSUME "ability to obey", which defeats the purpose of using clay as the symbol.
 
ReverendRV said:
Why do you say that?
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Jer 18:8,10
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here, God has a predetermined course of action depending if man obeys God or not. If man will not obey then God's predetermined course of action is show no mercy. But if man obeys God's predetermined course of action is to show mercy.

For example, Nineveh was a wicked city so God's predetermined course of action towards disobedient wicked people is show no mercy, hence God sent Jonah with the message that in 40 days the city would be overthrown. Yet Nineveh repented, they turned from their evil and Jer 18:8 shows God's predetermined course of action to those who obey is to show mercy. Jonah 3:10 says "God repented" which does not mean God changed His mind but changed His predetermined course of action from showing no mercy to the disobedient to showing mercy to those who obey by repenting turning from their wickedness.
 
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Theo1689 said:
Wrong.
"Fairness" and "justice" are completely different concepts.
God's "justice" is accomplished by Jesus on the cross.
"Fairness" is treating everyone the same, and God has no obligation to do that.
He loved Jacob, but hated Esau.
He treated Moses differently than Pharaoh.
He treated Israel differently than Assyria.



Clay was chosen precisely BECAUSE it is inanimate.
But instead of accepting that, you use the fact that it represents people to ASSUME "ability to obey", which defeats the purpose of using clay as the symbol.
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God is both fair and just. There is nothing fair and just in commanding men to believe but then not give man belief if the only way man could believe is by God giving man belief.

People are not inanimate and the clay represents people.
 
Gomer said:
God is both fair and just.
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That's simply not true.

Gomer said:
There is nothing fair and just in commanding men to believe but then not give man belief if the only way man could believe is by God giving man belief.
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I'm not interested in your worthless (and repetitive) opinion.
I'm only interested in SCRIPTURE.

Gomer said:
People are not inanimate and the clay represents people.
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You don't understand Scripture.
 
Gomer said:
Jer 18:8,10
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here, God has a predetermined course of action depending if man obeys God or not. If man will not obey then God's predetermined course of action is show no mercy. But if man obeys God's predetermined course of action is to show mercy.

For example, Nineveh was a wicked city so God's predetermined course of action towards disobedient wicked people is show no mercy, hence God sent Jonah with the message that in 40 days the city would be overthrown. Yet Nineveh repented, they turned from their evil and Jer 18:8 shows God's predetermined course of action to those who obey is to show mercy. Jonah 3:10 says "God repented" which does not mean God changed His mind but changed His predetermined course of action from showing no mercy to the disobedient to showing mercy to those who obey by repenting turning from their wickedness.
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That's true; after Grace, right?
 
ReverendRV said:
I disagree. Don't you agree that Grace comes before Works?
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No, there is no example of one UNconditionally receiving God's free gift then later obeys. Again, Nineveh obeyed FIRST by repenting THEN God repented and showed mercy, grace.

Two, obedience and works of merit are not the same thing. Works of merit will not save while obedience will.
 
Gomer said:
No, there is no example of one UNconditionally receiving God's free gift then later obeys. Again, Nineveh obeyed FIRST by repenting THEN God repented and showed mercy, grace.

Two, obedience and works of merit are not the same thing. Works of merit will not save while obedience will.
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Well in a way I'm glad you admit this; there are so many here who want to teach salvation by Prevenient faith; but know better than to admit it...

Saint Paul said we're Saved by Grace through Faith not by Works; why do you disagree with this Logical Order?

Are you a part of the 'we' or not?
 
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ReverendRV said:
Well in a way I'm glad you admit this; there are so many here who want to teach salvation by Prevenient faith; but know better than to admit it...

Saint Paul said we're Saved by Grace through Faith not by Works; why do you disagree with this Logical Order?
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I do not see that Paul is giving order in that one first receives grace then afterward one has faith but that it takes faith to access grace. God is attaching the condition of having faith to receiving grace.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

No faith = no access into grace.
 
Gomer said:
I do not see that Paul is giving order in that one first receives grace then afterward one has faith but that it takes faith to access grace. God is attaching the condition of having faith to receiving grace.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

No faith = no access into grace.
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Would you at least acknowledge that Saint Paul places Grace before Works because he says 'not by Works'?

You said Obedience and Works of Merit aren't the same thing, so why not also acknowledge that Grace comes before Works?
 
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Gomer said:
I do not see that Paul is giving order in that one first receives grace then afterward one has faith but that it takes faith to access grace. God is attaching the condition of having faith to receiving grace.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

No faith = no access into grace.
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Faith is the RESULT of God's grace:

1Tim. 1:14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
 
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