Fltom said:
Again why do you speak of the full aggregate of scripture when you appeal to human analogies.
Armylngst
I apologize. I forget that what Jesus was saying in John 3 was not actually scripture, but simply human analogy.
Sorry no Jesusc did not equate regeneration being born again with human birsth
John 3 "3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [
c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and
the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [
d]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and
yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you
people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who [
e]believes will have eternal life in Him."
Please explain how Jesus is not using human birth (from conception to birth) to explain the spiritual truth of salvation. This I just gotta hear. Nicodemus used natural understanding to basically ask Jesus a question that said he wasn't quite understanding what Jesus said. Jesus did not leave the vein of His statement, but changed it to spiritual terms. He basically told Nicodemus that one has to be spiritually conceived and born again. No one is of their own power reentering the womb in Jesus explanation.
Er As you started it was Nicodemis who spoke of re-entering his mothers womb and confounded human conception with spoiritual rebirth
armylngst said:
Why do you deny what Jesus teaches in John 6? He speaks of those drawn to Him by the Father, but He also speaks of those drawn to Him for other reasons. (Selfishness, curiosity, etc.) He clearly states that only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. That is, He says He won't lose A SINGLE ONE, and that He won't cast them out. So those who are born again cannot lose their salvation, and God won't cast them out. That basically covers ALL the bases. Why not take all of scripture into account?
fltom said:
I don't
You assume God was drawing men unconditionally
but God was giving to Christ those that were his
Armnylngst
And how did they become His? Ephesians 1. He unconditionally chose them before the foundation of the world to adoption as His children, who, as His children are held to the standard of living a life that is holy and unblemished.
Afraid not. God chose the faithful in Christ to be holy and blameless before him in love
He chose no one unconditionally
and the passage speaks of the blessing that are in Christ
Ephesians 1 (KJV 1900) — 1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places
in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us
in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted
in the beloved. 7 I
n whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things
in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted
in Christ. 13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
These are promises to those in Christ
one is placed in Christ when one believes
13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
that happens in time not eternity
Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles,
who also were in Christ before me.
fltom said:
John 17:6–8 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Armylngst
This is not John 6. Deal with the passage in question before running rabbit trails.
Are you afraid to know who Jesus states was given to him
fltom said:
He did so by
John 6:45 (ESV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—
those who believed the Father came to Christ
those who did not, did not come
end pt1