Regeneration through Faith in the gospel

[Synergy]

Strawman. I have no issue with "so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God". And of course knowledge of the truth and reality of God requires belief.



Strawman. No, believing in accordance with him make you repent.



Yes, repentance and faith entails hearing and believing.



No, when you believe in accord with God He causes repentance to occur. You don't cause your own "repentance", but believing in and with Him or in accordance with Him causes repentance.



Strawman. No not at all. Rather it is you who is misrepresenting how and why God is made known to believers.



Another strawman, where did I say "want to believe before you hear"?

More strawmanning. Actually it is believing in accordance to what God believes that makes believers do what God wants us to do. Or in other words, this is how He makes us follow His will. You obviously don't understand the Bible.

How then shall they call upon [him] in whom they did not believe? and how shall they believe [on him] of whom they did not hear? and how shall they hear apart from one preaching? and how shall they preach, if they may not be sent? according as it hath been written, `How beautiful the feet of those proclaiming good tidings of peace, of those proclaiming good tidings of the good things!'
But they were not all obedient to the good tidings, for Isaiah saith, `Lord, who did give credence to our report?' so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God, but I say, Did they not hear? yes, indeed -- `to all the earth their voice went forth, and to the ends of the habitable world their sayings.'
But I say, Did not Israel know? first Moses saith, `I will provoke you to jealousy by [that which is] not a nation; by an unintelligent nation I will anger you,' and Isaiah is very bold, and saith, `I was found by those not seeking Me; I became manifest to those not inquiring after Me;' and unto Israel He saith, `All the day I did stretch out My hands unto a people unbelieving and gainsaying.' (Romans 10:14-21)

We can be convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent and God does grant repentance if we repent but if we choose not to repent then it's a no go. The only way forward would be irresistible Grace (which is unbiblical) or God would have to repent for you and that's impossible. So Calvinism is in a pickle at that point.

 

[Tercon]

We can be convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent and God does grant repentance if we repent but if we choose not to repent then it's a no go.

Actually the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repentance is God granting repentance, as if God is the one causing the conviction, then He is also the One who cause and grants repentance as well.

The only way forward would be irresistible Grace (which is unbiblical) or God would have to repent for you and that's impossible. So Calvinism is in a pickle at that point.

Actually if it is only in the believing in accord with God are those who can't resist God's grace and conviction to repentance, then it must be God that causes everything necessary for His irresistible grace and repentance.

Simple question; can believers resist His grace?

 

[Newbirth]

Strawman. I have no issue with "so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God". And of course knowledge of the truth and reality of God requires belief.

that is babbling, it makes no sense.

Strawman. No, believing in accordance with him make you repent.

People repent of their own accord.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
God leads you to repentance but he does not make you repent. You have to repent of your own accord.

Yes, repentance and faith entails hearing and believing.

You are funny...faith and belief are the same things... You just said ...Yes, repentance and belief entails hearing and believing.
Therefore hearing comes before believing. So Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Which is before repentance. So you wen around in circles then came back to tell me what I have been telling you all along.

No, when you believe in accord with God He causes repentance to occur.

Now you are making up your own doctrine. Where is that foolishness written in the scripture?

You don't cause your own "repentance", but believing in and with Him or in accordance with Him causes repentance.

I never mentioned anyone causing repentance. You are trying to build a strawman. Please quote me correctly. God leads people to repentance, the person must repent of their own accord.

Strawman. No not at all. Rather it is you who is misrepresenting how and why God is made known to believers.

That was never the issue. the issue was always about hearing before belief. You brought up how and why God is known to believers to hide your ignorance.

Another strawman, where did I say "want to believe before you hear"?

That is what you are promoting. You said belief is involuntary, you said belief is imposed upon us. These are your words.

My point is that the truth and reality can't be known to you until you believe it for yourself "personally". And belief is involuntary; belief is imposed upon us by the truth and reality or the Author and Originator there of. Belief is a gift of God making our knowledge of the truth and reality a gift of God. You don't seem to understand how and why God is God.

You don't seem to understand, belief comes by hearing the word of God... You think it is involuntary and imposed before you hear the word...

More strawmanning. Actually it is believing in accordance to what God believes that makes believers do what God wants us to do.

Believers do what God wants them to do because they want to be obedient.

Or in other words, this is how He makes us follow His will. You obviously don't understand the Bible.

God does not make you do anything, God says to be obedient to his word.

How then shall they call upon [him] in whom they did not believe?

Therefore they need to hear..

and how shall they believe [on him] of whom they did not hear?

Therefore they need to hear.

and how shall they hear apart from one preaching?

Therefore they hear when someone preaches...

and how shall they preach, if they may not be sent?

Goe sent preachers for us to hear and believe. Not believe and then hear.

according as it hath been written, `How beautiful the feet of those proclaiming good tidings of peace, of those proclaiming good tidings of the good things!'
But they were not all obedient to the good tidings, for Isaiah saith, `Lord, who did give credence to our report?' so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God, but I say, Did they not hear? yes, indeed -- `to all the earth their voice went forth, and to the ends of the habitable world their sayings.'
But I say, Did not Israel know? first Moses saith, `I will provoke you to jealousy by [that which is] not a nation; by an unintelligent nation I will anger you,' and Isaiah is very bold, and saith, `I was found by those not seeking Me; I became manifest to those not inquiring after Me;' and unto Israel He saith, `All the day I did stretch out My hands unto a people unbelieving and gainsaying.' (Romans 10:14-21)

So they did hear ... So faith comes by hearing the word of God. You refuted yourself...AGAIN.

 

[fltom]

But belief is still a gift of God and we must believe in accordance with God before He is known to us and before we are filled with the Holy Spirit.

In the sense that God gives the ability to believe

can in the Calvinist sense where faith is irresistibly given to some and with-held from others

nor does he repent for you

But believing in accordance with Him does.



Actually the answer is believing in and with our "Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved".

No such scripture exists

You have added to the word of God

 

[Synergy]

Actually the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repentance is God granting repentance,

Nope. Conviction is being convicted, repentance is repenting. Two distinct actions. Do all convicts repent? Absolutely not.

as if God is the one causing the conviction, then He is also the One who cause and grants repentance as well.

Repentance can be granted by God but granting is not the same thing as irresistibly causing. All good things are ultimately from God, which includes Godly sorrow, but it is up to us to properly administer that gift. In fact, we do have the ability to sear our conscience and in the process refuse God's granting of repentance.

Actually if it is only in the believing in accord with God are those who can't resist God's grace and conviction to repentance, then it must be God that causes everything necessary for His irresistible grace and repentance.

Irresistible Grace is not biblical.

Simple question; can believers resist His grace?

See Heb 6:4-6 as one example.

 

[fltom]

Nope. Conviction is being convicted, repentance is repenting. Two distinct actions. Do all convicts repent? Absolutely not.

Repentance can be granted by God but granting is not the same thing as irresistibly causing. All good things are ultimately from God, which includes Godly sorrow, but it is up to us to properly administer that gift. In fact, we do have the ability to sear our conscience and in the process refuse God's granting of repentance.

Correct God grants repentance through the message of repentance and Hoy Ghost conviction

 

[Synergy]

Correct God grants repentance through the message of repentance and Hoy Ghost conviction

In their inability to understand the relationship that God has setup for mankind, Calvinists remind me so much of Muslims. They both believe in hard-core predestination and they're both hard-core iconoclasts, where man is viewed as no more valuable than a door knob.

 

[Theo1689]

In their inability to understand the relationship that God has setup for mankind,

We understand your theology, we simply believe it's unBiblical.

Calvinists remind me so much of Muslims.

Guilt by association.

YOU remind me of Muslims. Muslims believe in one God.
Guess what? SO DO YOU! ???

They both believe in hard-core predestination

Guess what?
"Predestination" is BIBLICAL.

and they're both hard-core iconoclasts, where man is viewed as no more valuable than a door knob.

Just for the record, NO Calvinist has ever stated or believed that man is "no more valuable than a door knob".

 

[fltom]

In their inability to understand the relationship that God has setup for mankind, Calvinists remind me so much of Muslims. They both believe in hard-core predestination and they're both hard-core iconoclasts, where man is viewed as no more valuable than a door knob.

It is true Islam is deterministic as is Calvinism

 

[Reformedguy]

It is true Islam is deterministic as is Calvinism

As is Provisionism

 

[Tercon]

People repent of their own accord.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? God leads you to repentance but he does not make you repent. You have to repent of your own accord.

If you repented of your "own accord", then you saved yourself.

But if "God leadeth thee to repentance", then God's leading caused your repentance and it isn't of your "own accord" at all is it?

You are funny...faith and belief are the same things... You just said ...Yes, repentance and belief entails hearing and believing.

Yes. If faith is the truth we believe about God, then repentance and belief does logically entail hearing and believing.

Therefore hearing comes before believing.

Knowing God and/or the knowledge of God comes from hearing and believing.

So Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Faith entails hearing and believing too.

Which is before repentance. So you wen around in circles then came back to tell me what I have been telling you all along.

God causes belief, faith and repentance.
I would say; if there was one that God didn't cause it is hearing, because even unbelievers can hear sounds. But no unbeliever can believe God and have faith or repent.

Now you are making up your own doctrine. Where is that foolishness written in the scripture?

No I am not, you just don't understand the Bible. Are you suggesting that God doesn't believe; but disbelieves instead?

and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, [him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

I never mentioned anyone causing repentance. You are trying to build a strawman. Please quote me correctly. God leads people to repentance, the person must repent of their own accord.

Strawman. I didn't say you did. But if "God leads people to repentance", then God must definitionally play a part in causing their repentance to occur right?

That was never the issue. the issue was always about hearing before belief. You brought up how and why God is known to believers to hide your ignorance.

Strawman. No, I brought it up because God can't be known without belief and being a believers. So, hearing and believing are require for any knowledge of God. So, if "faith comes by hearing", then the "hearing" it's referring to must denote believing as well, because faith entails belief. Understand?

That is what you are promoting. You said belief is involuntary, you said belief is imposed upon us. These are your words.

Yes I know. If the truth and reality demand belief in order to be known, then belief must be imposed on believers in order to make the truth and reality known to us. And keep in mind now that if the truth, logic, consciousness, existence, morality, reality and belief itself all originates in and with God's mind, then He is the Originator and cause of all that makes real life possible.

You don't seem to understand, belief comes by hearing the word of God... You think it is involuntary and imposed before you hear the word...

No, it is you who doesn't understand; because if faith and belief comes by hearing God, then hearing and believing God must cause believers to know God. And if everything that is good (including repentance) is from God, then God must cause repentance as well. So, God still must cause faith and repentance to occur. Why do you want to take credit for God's work?

Believers do what God wants them to do because they want to be obedient.

But it is still the believers believing God that causes them to be obedient. Why do you want to take credit for God's work?

God does not make you do anything, God says to be obedient to his word.

And believers are obedient to his word because they believe it.

Therefore they need to hear..

Therefore they need to hear.

Therefore they hear when someone preaches...

Believers heard and believed, they just didn't "hear", because there are plenty who hear the word of God and disbelieve. So, it is only in the believers hearing that the knowledge of God comes.

Goe sent preachers for us to hear and believe. Not believe and then hear.

So they did hear ... So faith comes by hearing the word of God. You refuted yourself...AGAIN.

Strawman. In the verse that says "faith comes by hearing" and when they say "hearing" they must be referring and denoting only believers, because "faith"+ requires and logically entails belief.

 

[Tercon]

edit

If love, patience and forgiveness are good and a gift from God and God loves, has patience and forgives sin and faith. And faith and belief are good and a gift of God too, then God must believe if our faith originated in and with God too. God never asks believers to do what He hasn't already done or does Himself.

edit

Spam removed.

edit

Strawman. I said He makes us repent and not "does he repent for you".

edit

Are you suggesting that Christ didn't believe or have faith?

edit

Strawman. No, I just know what it means.

 

[Tercon]

The scripture does not say anything about "the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repentance is God granting repentance" When you write those nonsense back them up with a quote from the scripture.

We can be convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent and God does grant repentance if we repent but if we choose not to repent then it's a no go. The only way forward would be irresistible Grace (which is unbiblical) or God would have to repent for you and that's impossible. So Calvinism is in a pickle at that point.

Actually this post is answering Synergy's post and not yours: and he said "We can be convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent and God does grant repentance". So, keep track of where you are.

God does not cause conviction. Where is the quote from the scripture saying God causes conviction?
God granted repentance to Both Jews and Gentiles. But he does not cause or force people to repent.

God does not force anyone to repent

Yes anyone can resist God's grace. When Jews reject the Messiah are they not resisting God's grace?

Hebrews 4:12 says that "the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." The Word of God is a piercing, two-edged sword that lays open the true condition of the heart! Paul says, "Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17). The reason the Word of God can have such power to lay open the heart is because it is the sword of the Spirit. It is not man's sword. It does not merely have man's endorsement, or man's power behind it. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth. The true word of God is his Word, and he loves it and honors it and empowers it. And the power to “cut to the Heart” the Spirit of truth does.
So, when we read in verse 37 that the people listening to Peter's preaching were "cut [or pierced] to the heart," we shouldn't be ignorant of what he speaks. Peter was preaching God's Word—Joel 2, Psalm 16, Psalm 110, Jesus Christ! And not only that, according to verse 4, he was filled with the Holy Spirit as he preached. So the Word of God was not Peter's sword that Pentecost morning. It was the Spirit's sword. And the Spirit done his piercing work, He pierced the hearts of 3,000 hearers and made them believe.
And they cried out to Peter and the apostles, "What shall we do?" What a wonderful thing it is when, after years of running from God and years of denial and rebellion, a person can no longer resist the Word and the Spirit of God. And I do believe that the above new believers were in facts Jews as well were they not?

 

[Tercon]

It is true Islam is deterministic as is Calvinism

Yeah; God is pretty determined to have His bride, as it is only unbeliever that stay in the dark.
And this should be quite telling to the Reader; that it is ONLY unbelievers that can resist God's truth about His grace and will, they use their unbelief to keep themselves in their ignorance of God's way.

 

[fltom]

And yes I can tell you "where faith is irresistibly given to some and with-held from others":

Book chapter and verse

 

[SeventhDay]

au contraire

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)


We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

God regenerates those he has forgiven

foregiveness requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

No regeneration then no faith to receive the good news message! Believing God is not salvation but rather salvation is believing God! God bless you.

 

[Synergy]

No regeneration then no faith to receive the good news message! Believing God is not salvation but rather salvation is believing God! God bless you.

The OT Saints had great faith centuries before the Holy Spirit started to regenerate believers at Pentecost. That shows clearly that faith can and does come before regeneration.

 

[Slyzr]

No regeneration then no faith to receive the good news message! Believing God is not salvation but rather salvation is believing God! God bless you.

Hugh ,,,,,

 

[SeventhDay]

No, you repented because Jesus said to repent. That is called obedience.

God leads you to repentance does not mean God makes you repent, therefore God did not cause you to repent

In which case hearing comes first. You just explained that hearing comes before believing. Which is what I have been telling you from the get go.

So you agree that hearing comes before believing.

That is why the scripture says Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Why are you stuttering? Faith and belief mean the same thing. Jesus commands people to repent. He did not say God will cause you to repent.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

You can say whatever you want but the scriptures say faith comes by hearing...It was unbelievers/sinners who heard the word of God and

Of course, they can because faith comes by hearing the word of God. You already conceded that they can hear, so they heard the word of God. And since faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith came to them when they heard the word of God. They believed what they heard and they repented.

I asked you where the rubbish you wrote is written in the scripture. You failed to answer the question so don't tell me about what you assume I am suggesting. Quote me don't assume I am suggesting anything without a quote.

Out of context

The part he plays is leading them to repentance ...they must repent of their own accord. Think about it ...to repent in this case is to be sorry for your sins. Did God cause you to sin that he must cause you to repent for your sins?


Even if that were true, how can they know or believe without hearing?

That is my point. I said faith comes by hearing the word of God. You keep refuting yourself by repeating what I am saying.

Not if faith comes by hearing... The scripture says faith comes by hearing. Faith and belief are the same things.

What rubbish are you spewing? Truth and reality do not demand anything. They are what they are. Belief comes by hearing the word of God.

You keep on babbling about IF this and IF that. No one cares about your IFs

Sir, it causes them to believe God. The scripture does not say it causes them to know God. If you have a passage that says that please post it.

That is foolish logic...God commands people to repent he does not cause them to repent... If God causes people to repent why would he command them to do what he already cause them to do?
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

No God commands men to repent...
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If God is causing you to repent why does he command you to repent?
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Obedient to what word? You said God cause them to repent therefore there is no need to obey since God is causing them to do it.

Who says they disbelieve? The scripture says faith / belief comes by hearing the word of God. You are saying disbelief comes by hearing the word of God. Please show the Chapter and verse that says disbelief comes by hearing the word of God.

Show




Sir faith and belief mean the same thing. Therefore belief comes by hearing the word of God. So one must be an unbeliever before hearing the word of God in order to hear the word and believe.

No, one must be saved to hear the word of God as a new spiritual creation. Dead men do not have spiritual ears therefore can not hear and hearken to the good news! It is interesting what an alive person can do who God has saved: He can spiritually hear, spiritual hearken spiritually understand. spiritually believe, spiritually obey and spiritually repent. A dead man can not do any of these things! God bless you.

 

[Synergy]

No, one must be saved to hear the word of God as a new spiritual creation. Dead men do not have spiritual ears therefore can not hear and hearken to the good news! It is interesting what an alive person can do who God has saved: He can spiritually hear, spiritual hearken spiritually understand. spiritually believe, spiritually obey and spiritually repent. A dead man can not do any of these things! God bless you.

You are denying the power of the Holy Spirit ministry to convict unbelievers to repent before they are gifted with the Holy Spirit and regenerated.