Jerome as author-translator of the full Vulgate New Testament

You're back to your the simple minded refuge of denial Steven.
Because he doesn't actually read the excerpts you provide with any attention at all. He simply looks for key phrases like "three are one," "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," etc. in every resource he happens to stumble upon.

Context? What context? They quoted the Comma! Don't you see?

Next Avery will find a long lost letter from one of Tertullian’s neighbor's son's grandchildren who saw John on the street one day and was told

"I'm going to write this Epistle and include a verse that will be the strongest proof of the Trinity in all of scripture. Now, young man, you watch and see how quickly the [name any anti-trinitarian group] try to remove this "beautiful," "majestic," and "wonderful" verse of scripture from every single Greek copy of my Epistle that will ever exist!"
 
Because he doesn't actually read the excerpts you provide with any attention at all. He simply looks for key phrases like "three are one," "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," etc. in every resource he happens to stumble upon.

Context? What context? They quoted the Comma! Don't you see?

Next Avery will find a long lost letter from one of Tertullian’s neighbor's son's grandchildren who saw John on the street one day and was told

"I'm going to write this Epistle and include a verse that will be the strongest proof of the Trinity in all of scripture. Now, young man, you watch and see how quickly the [name any anti-trinitarian group] try to remove this "beautiful," "majestic," and "wonderful" verse of scripture from every single Greek copy of my Epistle that will ever exist!"

Lol.
 
Sure, bypassing nonsense that goes nowhere, and loaded questions.

And claims from one poster who falsely accused me of lying based on his own difficulties in reading comprehension.

My presentations are clear and straight-forward. I look for honest scholarship. Grantley helped heavenly witnesses scholarship in many ways.
 
Chapter 25, eisegetically interprets John 10:30 in a Montanist way, in accordance with the Leader of the New Prophecy, whom they gave the title "the Paraclete" (which they derived from Scripture, but illegitimately bestowed) to the man "Montanus" (named in Chapter 1).

The use of the Paraclete in Against Praxeas Chapter 25 is simple normative New Testament, whether you agree with the Trinitarian view or not.

What follows Philip's question, and the Lord's whole treatment of it, to the end of John's Gospel, continues to furnish us with statements of the same kind, distinguishing the Father and the Son, with the properties of each. Then there is the Paraclete or Comforter, also, which He promises to pray for to the Father, and to send from heaven after He had ascended to the Father. He is called another Comforter, indeed; John 14:16 but in what way He is another we have already shown, He shall receive of mine, says Christ, John 16:14 just as Christ Himself received of the Father's. Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person, as it is said, I and my Father are One, John 10:30 in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number.

Sometimes you talk of polysemy, that a word can have more than one sense, yet all of a sudden here your mind goes blank.
 
The use of the Paraclete in Against Praxeas Chapter 25 is simple normative New Testament, whether you agree with the Trinitarian view or not.

What follows Philip's question, and the Lord's whole treatment of it, to the end of John's Gospel, continues to furnish us with statements of the same kind, distinguishing the Father and the Son, with the properties of each. Then there is the Paraclete or Comforter, also, which He promises to pray for to the Father, and to send from heaven after He had ascended to the Father. He is called another Comforter, indeed; John 14:16 but in what way He is another we have already shown, He shall receive of mine, says Christ, John 16:14 just as Christ Himself received of the Father's. Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person, as it is said, I and my Father are One, John 10:30 in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number.

Sometimes you talk of polysemy, that a word can have more than one sense, yet all of a sudden here your mind goes blank.
Re polysemy in respect of Greek grammar of ἕν:

As I have pointed out before. Tertullian's argument is deeply flawed on account of Deut 6:4, which says God is "one" <masculine>. Without taking Deut 6:4 into account, Tertullian's thesis is untenable.

Tertullian alludes to John 10:30 and to ἕν ("one" - Adj - Neuter Nominative Singular) ("I and the Father are one <neuter>.") But <neuter> in the Greek doesn't have the necessary connotation of <substance> that Tertullian puts on this Greek gender. The grammatical connotations of ἕν are polysemic. Other connotations are <spirit> and <origin> (i.e. approximating to a concept of divine ageny).

Per Winer (SECT. XXVII.] NUMBER AND GENDER OF NOUNS. p191) "The Neuter, Singular or Plural, is sometimes employed to denote a person, when the writer purposely expresses himself in general terms, to avoid particularising the individual." So all that can be plausibly adduced is that Jesus and his Father are not "one person."

Agency Connotations of ἕν
As to <spirit>, Eph 4:4 also (i.e. in addition to Deut 6:4) accounts for why the terms "Spirit of Christ" and "Spirit of God" are used interchangeably:

E.g. Romans 8:9 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

As to <origin>, John 8:42 "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

_____________________________
Ergo: the argument of Tertullian that Jesus <the man> and his Father are of one <essence/substance> in John 10:30 is not made out. For what is made out by one <essence/substance> is that they aren't distinguishable in any material aspect, even during Jesus's humanity. Yet if this is so, how could "the Father [be] greater than [Jesus]” (John 14:28)? Of course, in (high) Trinitarianism, it can't be true - ever - even during Jesus's humanity; and which is another argument for why Tertullian's argument is wrong.

NB: Deut 6:4 presents a transcendent argument about God, which is that God is denoted and characterized by the Father.
 
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The use of the Paraclete in Against Praxeas Chapter 25 is simple normative New Testament, whether you agree with the Trinitarian view or not.



Sometimes you talk of polysemy, that a word can have more than one sense, yet all of a sudden here your mind goes blank.

So, Tertullian's Chapter 25 is a non-Montanist chapter in the midst of thirty one chapters of a Montanist book?

How does that work?

In chapter 8 Tertullian interprets John 10:30, and in chapter 25 Tertullian also interprets John 10:30.

How can his interpretation of this very same verse (John 10:30) about three "persons" being joined together as "one" substance in chapter 25 not be directly related to his interpretation of John 10:30 that the Son is an (προβολη) "emanation" from that very same substance in chapter 8, (in the very same treatise/book) be declared "simple normative New Testament"?

Unless Gnostic emanationism and Sabellianistic One-substance-ness, where, as Tertullian says "the Son will not be separated from him" is "normative" to you?

Tertullian of Carthage

Adversum Praxaen

Translation By Dr. Holmes 1870

Chapter 8


"The Word, therefore, is both always in the Father, as He says, "I am in the Father;" and is always with God, according to what is written, "And the Word was with God;" and never separate from the Father, or other than the Father, since "I and the Father are one" [John 10:30]. This will be (προβολη) the prolation, taught by the Truth, the Guardian of the Unity, wherein we declare that the Son is a prolation from the Father, without being separated from Him. For God sent forth the Word, as the Paraclete also declares..."​

Tertullian's Montanistic-Sabellianistic-hybrid "One-substance-ness" eisegetical interpretation and Gnostic emanationism is certainly not normal to us, and there's certainly nothing "simple" about this interpretation.

P.S. I don't buy into Tertullian's rambling explain aways that follow this either.
 
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So, Tertullian's Chapter 25 is a non-Montanist chapter in the midst of thirty one chapters of a Montanist book?

The Montanist element is emphasized in about three chapters of the 30. It does not mean that the word Comforter/Paraclete never has the simple Bible meaning. That contention is absurd.

It is fine to criticize the charis-mania element of Montanism, it is silly to try to overlay all the Trinitarian writing of Tertullian with that element.
 
Actually the saying that Cyprian quotes the heavenly witnesses verse is quite understandable, because of the double emphasis:

et iterum

scriptum est


With Father, Son and Holy Spirit positioned between the two.
Et iterum is marking the fact of an additional verse, after John 10:30.

“Dicit Dominus, ‘Ego et Pater unum sumus,’(John 10:30) et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: ‘Et tres unum sunt.’”
" The Lord said, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is written, "and these three are one"

Thus, Cyprian is quoting from the heavenly witnesses verse
 
Tertullian, whose trinity came not from the Comma, but from his philosophical deductions in Adversus Praxean, which are seen to be based on John 10:30, and 1 John 5:8 (tres unum sunt),
If Tertullian was allegorizing spirit, water and blood, he would declare the allegory.

The simple fact is that the heavenly witnesses verse was in his Bible.
 
Where does Against Praxeas 25 have anything like “the Paraclete also declares”, the local Montanist trigger phrase in Chapter 8?
 
Where does Against Praxeas 25 have anything like “the Paraclete also declares”, the local Montanist trigger phrase in Chapter 8?

Where does he say "the Paraclete doesn't declare", the local non-Montantist trigger phrase?

Who set the rule that Tertullian has to explicitly say this is, and this isn't what Montanus says? Someone separated by nearly 2000 years from Tertuallian and the Montanists, in the twentieth century.

The entire book is permeated from start to finish with peculiar Montanist interpretations of the economy of the Trinity and the Monarchy of the Father.

The main theme of Advesus Praxaes is Tertullian's Montanist intepretation of the Trinity, and the "unity" or "one-ness" of the Trinity, and interpretations of the related (οἰκονομία) "economy", which was based on the quasi-materialistic concept of same/shared-substance which in Tertullian's thinking makes possible a unified and undivided (μοναρχία) "Monarchy".

Tertullian of Carthage (circa. 145-225 A.D./C.E.)

"Against Praxaes"

Translated by Alexander Donaldson

Chapter 3


"and since it has not from this circumstance ceased to be the rule of one (so as no longer to be a monarchy), because it is administered by so many thousands of powers; how comes it to pass that God should be thought to suffer division and severance in the Son and in the Holy Ghost, who have the second and the third places assigned to them, and who are so closely joined with the Father in His substance, when He suffers no such (division and severance) in the multitude of so many angels? Do you really suppose that Those, who are naturally members of the Father's own substance, pledges of His love, instruments of His might, nay, His power itself and the entire system of His monarchy, are the overthrow and destruction thereof? You are not right in so thinking. I prefer your exercising yourself on the meaning of the thing rather than on the sound of the word. Now you must understand the overthrow of a monarchy to be this, when another dominion, which has a framework and a state peculiar to itself (and is therefore a rival), is brought in over and above it: when, e.g., some other god is introduced in opposition to the Creator, as in the opinions of Marcion; or when many gods are introduced, according to your Valentinuses and your Prodicuses. Then it amounts to an overthrow of the Monarchy, since it involves the destruction of the Creator...”​

Tertullian's "substance" concept, as seen in Chapter 25, cannot be sanitized from it's connection with Chapter 8.

Tertullian of Carthage (circa. 145-225 A.D./C.E.)

"Against Praxaes"

Translated by Dr. Holmes 1870

Chapter 8


"This will be (προβολη) the prolation [Or: "emanation"], taught by the truth, the Guardian [Or: "the Keeper" "the Watchman"] of the Unity [Or: "One-ness"], wherein we declare that the Son is (προβολη) a prolation [Or: "emanation"] from the Father, without being separated from Him. For God sent forth the Word, as the Paraclete also declares, just as the root puts forth the tree, and the fountain the river, and the sun the ray. For these are προβοληαι, or emanations, of the substances from which they proceed. I should not hesitate, indeed, to call the tree the son or offspring of the root, and the river of the fountain, and the ray of the sun; because every original source is a parent, and everything which issues from the origin is an offspring. Much more is (this true of) the Word of God, who has actually received as His own peculiar designation the name of Son. But still the tree is not severed from the root, nor the river from the fountain, nor the ray from the sun; nor, indeed, is the Word separated from God. Following, therefore, the form of these analogies, I confess that I call God and His Word - the Father and His Son - two. For the root and the tree are distinctly two things, but correlatively joined; the fountain and the river are also two forms, but indivisible; so likewise the sun and the ray are two forms, but coherent ones. Everything which proceeds from something else must needs be second to that from which it proceeds, without being on that account separated: Where, however, there is a second, there must be two; and where there is a third, there must be three. Now the Spirit indeed is third from God and the Son; just as the fruit of the tree is third from the root, or as the stream out of the river is third from the fountain, or as the apex of the ray is third from the sun. Nothing, however, is alien from that original source whence it derives its own properties. In like manner the Trinity, flowing down from the Father through intertwined and connected steps, does not at all disturb (μοναρχία) the Monarchy, whilst it at the same time guards the state of (οἰκονομία) the Economy."​


It doesn't need anything to be explicitly stated about Montanus at all (like Chapter 8 which you say is a Montanist "trigger"), if the Montanist concept is there, which it certainly is in Chapter 25.

You cannot separate the Montanist interpretation of the substance in Chapter 8 from the same inseparably connected interpretation of "the substance" in Chapter 25 (which is exactly what Tertullian's words "qui tres unum sunt [Variant "sint"]" is explaining).

The man Montanus as the Paraclete is explicitly "the Interpreter of the (οἰκονομία) economy" in Chapter 31 (cf. "his" in "the sermons of his New Prophecy").

Tertullian of Carthage (circa. 145-225 A.D./C.E.)

Adversum Praxaen 30.5


This man in the meantime, he has received the gift that came from the Father, which he poured forth, the Holy Spirit [Or: “the Spirit of Holiness”], the third name of the Divinity, and the third stage [Lit., “the third step”] of the Divine Majesty, the Preacher [Or: “the Publisher”] of a unified [Or: “sole” “single”] monarchy, but also the Interpreter of the (οἰκονομία) economy, for anyone, who will permit admittance to HIS sermons of THE NEW PROPHECY, even the Leader of all truth [Or : "the Guide of" "the Conductor of" "the Escort of" cf. John 16:13] which consists in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in accordance with [Or: “according to”] the Christian mystery...”
The theme of substance runs throughout the entire book, which for Tertullian, Montanus is obviously (interpretatorem) "the Interpreter".
 
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Where are all the places that Tertullian speaks of the Father, Son and Spirit, where the Spirit is the Montanist prophet.

Please list all the places.

Where does Tertullian say the concept of the substance wasn't connected in some way to Montanus' interpretation, or wasn't a revelation of the New Prophecy in Adversus Praxaes?
 
Where does Tertullian say the concept of the substance wasn't connected in some way to Montanus' interpretation, or wasn't a revelation of the New Prophecy in Adversus Praxaes?

Why did you ask silly questions? The bottom line is simple, Tertullian frequently gives Spirit and Paraclete in the New Testament sense. You are spinning your wheels over nothing.
 
Why didn't he quote it, instead of deferring to John 10:30 for his authority?

Questions like this show an ignorance of New Testament referencing. e.g. Folks frequently quote Trinity apologetics without Matthew 28:19? There are many reasons why quotes might be full, partial or an allusion.
 
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