Question for Catholics about the 4 Marian dogmas

[4givenmuch]

We believe that at Mass we do what the scriptures command. We ask forgiveness for our sins, and for God's mercy and His help in our lives. We have an OT reading and a NT reading. We have the gospel read aloud and then elaborated on via a sermon, and we pray other prayers directly from the bible and receive Him in Holy Communion. Those things, all in context with each other, most definitely feeds the hungry soul. What is done at other times of the week is left to the individual to decide, and like people from other Christian denominations, some will seek God's solace more than others.

Does the gospel include the Marion dogmas or is it only Christ who forgives our sin?

 

[4givenmuch]

No---but then again, I do not attend a Protestant church.

Our Bible readings aren't just a few verses.

Since most in my family are catholic I have attended a few services as a child and even then I found it lacking. I remember the first time I heard them chant about Mary as a child and right then I knew I shouldn't be there because I knew all the glory goes to God not Mary.

 

[4givenmuch]

Why don't you give them

Why don't you give them one?

I have and even lent my precious bible out that my dad had giving me for my 17th birthday when I was short and didn't have any. I told her to take care of it until I got her one.
When I got her one and asked to trade back she couldn't find it anywhere. I was absolutely crushed.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

What do those who don't believe in the Real Presence receive? The Lord's Supper or a morsel of bread.

Sorry, the real presence is already in us. We dont have to go looking elsewhere where He is not.
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?(2Corinth 13:5)

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks again for your Lutheran expertise. I am sure it is especially useful on the Lutheran boards.

Why did you ignore what I wrote? My being Lutheran has zero to do with my quoting John 3:16 and Acts 16, and asking where either Jesus or Paul added the 4 Marian Dogmas when they said how we are saved. Anyone on here could quote the same verses. I interpreted nothing, just quoted those Bible verses. They are super easy to understand.

This is just a diversionary tactic to get out of dealing with those verses I quoted and how they say we are saved...isn't it, Romish?

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks again for your Lutheran expertise. I am sure it is especially useful on the Lutheran boards.

Thanks for demonstrating you cannot answer my simple questions about John 3:16 and Acts 16, but must instead attempt a diversion by dragging in that I am a Lutheran, which has zero to do with my questions. Or this discussion.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

On November 1st, 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed and defined as a dogma the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Munificentissimus Deus (MD). Prior to this time, the Plenary Council of Baltimore (1885) had kept the Holy Mother's Assumption (August 15th) to be among the six feasts as holy days of obligation in the United States.

In the declaration, Pope Pius XII says; "by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." All Catholics are bound to believe is that Mary was assumed into Heaven or as Pius XII said, "if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith... It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."

 

[Nondenom40]

I have and even lent my precious bible out that my dad had giving me for my 17th birthday when I was short and didn't have any. I told her to take care of it until I got her one.
When I got her one and asked to trade back she couldn't find it anywhere. I was absolutely crushed.

I know what you mean. I've had the same bible i bought 35-40 years ago. It was a hard cover, lost that about 12 years ago. Its a very personal thing for believers because of all the highlighting, notes we put in the margins. I still remember where i bought it. We certainly don't worship it but it is a very personal thing we have. Thats why it pains us when catholics show such disdain for Gods word.

 

[Nondenom40]

On November 1st, 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed and defined as a dogma the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Munificentissimus Deus (MD). Prior to this time, the Plenary Council of Baltimore (1885) had kept the Holy Mother's Assumption (August 15th) to be among the six feasts as holy days of obligation in the United States.

In the declaration, Pope Pius XII says; "by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." All Catholics are bound to believe is that Mary was assumed into Heaven or as Pius XII said, "if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith... It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."

Thanks for the laugh. My neighbor down the street could have made the very same declaration with the same level of authority! Which is to say, none. "By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ...?" The arrogance is appalling. But was it really a 'divinely revealed dogma?' Lets see. Have you read this one MF?

DEIPARAE VIRGINIS MARIAE

We wish to know if you, Venerable Brethren, with your learning and prudence consider that the bodily Assumption of the Immaculate Blessed Virgin can be proposed and defined as a dogma of faith, and whether in addition to your own wishes this is desired by your clergy and people

So a 'divinely revealed dogma' needs a popularity poll before being officially declared? What would have happened if they all said no? Would God have yanked back this 'revealed' dogma? This is the idiocy of rc dogmas. None of it is of God, its of self for no other reason than to bind catholics to such garbage. Incur the wrath of God AND Peter and Paul? So when God gets done with you He sends in Peter and Paul like a couple of wise guys to break your knee caps? Mary being assumed into heaven has zilch to do with anyones salvation. Let alone the fact it never happened. Jesus lived and died to lift the yoke of the law off of peoples shoulders and the rcc heaps it right back on with this nonsense.

 

[mica]

Why did you ignore what I wrote? My being Lutheran has zero to do with my quoting John 3:16 and Acts 16, and asking where either Jesus or Paul added the 4 Marian Dogmas when they said how we are saved. Anyone on here could quote the same verses. I interpreted nothing, just quoted those Bible verses. They are super easy to understand.

This is just a diversionary tactic to get out of dealing with those verses I quoted and how they say we are saved...isn't it, Romish?

a diversionary tactic used because catholics have nothimg biblical to spport their catholic beliefs.

 

[Bonnie]

a diversionary tactic used because catholics have nothimg biblical to spport their catholic beliefs.

Certainly. In fact, why not quote the same verses I did, from John 3:16, and the pertinent ones from Acts 16, to show such quoting to prove how we are saved is NOT confined to Lutherans...? ?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Thanks for the laugh. My neighbor down the street could have made the very same declaration with the same level of authority!

No, your neighbor could not. Your neighbor is not a bishop or pope, and thus, not a successor to the Apostles.

Which is to say, none. "By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ...?" The arrogance is appalling.

It is only arrogance if the pope does not have such authority and claims it. If the pope, in fact, has the authority, then it is not arrogance. The pope is just doing his job.

But was it really a 'divinely revealed dogma?' Lets see. Have you read this one MF?

So a 'divinely revealed dogma' needs a popularity poll before being officially declared?

No. The Church is not a democracy. However, becasue the Church is the Sacrament of Christ, (visible sign of the invisible presence of Christ) the Faith she professes is an indication that something is revealed.

What would have happened if they all said no?

I see it as unlikely the pope would have defined the dogma.

Would God have yanked back this 'revealed' dogma?

You mean if the pope went and defined it--and no one accepted it? No. Truth does not depend on ascent. At the same time--I am not certain it is even possible that the pope could define something that the Church would categorically reject. If the pope is defining it, it means the Church believes it. The Church does not believe it because the pope defines it, rather, the pope defines it because the Church believes it.

Thus, the scenario you paint above----strikes me as an impossibility.

This is the idiocy of rc dogmas.

Or the idiocy of Protestants who don't understand Catholicism and seek to create dichotomies where there are none.

None of it is of God, its of self for no other reason than to bind Catholics to such garbage.

Thank you for offering your subjective opinions.

Incur the wrath of God AND Peter and Paul? So when God gets done with you He sends in Peter and Paul like a couple of wise guys to break your knee caps? Mary being assumed into heaven has zilch to do with anyone's salvation.

If one knows something to be true and to be revealed by God, but rejects it, can one be saved?

For example: if I know that Catholicism is false, yet remain Catholic, can I be saved? No, right?

So what is or is not truth, and believing or not believing what is or is not true has EVERYTHING to do with one's salvation.

Let alone the fact it never happened. Jesus lived and died to lift the yoke of the law off of peoples shoulders and the rcc heaps it right back on with this nonsense.

How is believing that the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior ascended into heaven---a burden?

I find it quite delightful to believe that, and in no way burdensome. Actually---it is burdensome--I take that back. I am so overcome with joy in believing it that my heart wants to burst. I cannot contain my joy. So in that sense I guess it is burdensome. How do you contain uncontainable joy?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

On November 1st, 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed and defined as a dogma the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Munificentissimus Deus (MD). Prior to this time, the Plenary Council of Baltimore (1885) had kept the Holy Mother's Assumption (August 15th) to be among the six feasts as holy days of obligation in the United States.

In the declaration, Pope Pius XII says; "by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." All Catholics are bound to believe is that Mary was assumed into Heaven or as Pius XII said, "if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith... It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."

Your Pope assumes to much. Where were all the witnesses?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Since most in my family are Catholic I have attended a few services as a child and even then I found it lacking.

Funny you should say that. As as child I grew up Protestant and Catholic becasue my family is a mix. I went to Mass Saturday with my mother, Sunday to the Methodist Church with my father.

As much as I liked my fathers Church-----for me------it seemed like something was missing. I didn't realize it then, but what I was missing was the Blessed Sacrament. Methodists, nor any Protestant for that matter has anything analogous.

I remember the first time I heard them chant about Mary

"Chant about Mary?" You mean they literally "Chanted" about Mary? What does that even mean? I have never seen a priest "Chant" about Mary.

as a child and right then I knew I shouldn't be there because I knew all the glory goes to God not Mary.

Funny you should say that also.

One thing I have never had a problem understanding--as a child in Catholicism and now----is that while we honor Mary, even greatly honor Mary, I know the difference between her and Jesus--and I know that ultimate power, might, honor, and glory belong to God and God alone.

 

[CES1951]

No, your neighbor could not. Your neighbor is not a bishop or pope, and thus, not a successor to the Apostles....

Your "pope" is not a successor to anything. Well, except all the RCC baloney. He has no more authority than any Christian. Matter of fact, he has less, because I don't believe he is a Christian. No one is free to make up a bunch of junk not found in the Word of God and declare it must be believed for salvation!

.....if Catholicism is false, yet I remain Catholic, can I be saved? No, right?

Now, you're making progress!

 

[pilgrim]

Jesus Himself called the contents of the cup the "fruit of the vine" AFTER He had given His disciples the cup and bade them to drink from it. So yes, it was STILL WINE. But the RCC ignores this. Why?

The four cups contain wine initially. It was the third cup only that Jesus consecrated - the "cup of blessing".
1 Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

 

[4Him]

The four cups contain wine initially. It was the third cup only that Jesus consecrated - the "cup of blessing".
1 Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Wonderful verse showing that you bread BREAD...

 

[Bonnie]

On November 1st, 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed and defined as a dogma the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Munificentissimus Deus (MD). Prior to this time, the Plenary Council of Baltimore (1885) had kept the Holy Mother's Assumption (August 15th) to be among the six feasts as holy days of obligation in the United States.

In the declaration, Pope Pius XII says; "by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." All Catholics are bound to believe is that Mary was assumed into Heaven or as Pius XII said, "if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith... It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."

I'm quaking in my slippers....not!???

 

[Bonnie]

The four cups contain wine initially. It was the third cup only that Jesus consecrated - the "cup of blessing".
1 Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

So? Jesus still said, AFTER consecrating it, and bidding His disciples "Drink of it, all of you....", that He would not drink the FRUIT OF THE VINE again until He drank it new in His Father's Kingdom (paraphrased).

What is the fruit of the vine, pilgrim?

God gave us scenses of taste and smell and those senses tell us the bread and wine are still bread and wine, even after consecration. But
in some way we cannot understand, this side of heaven, Jesus' true body and blood come to be present in, with, and under the bread and wine. Yet they are still bread and wine.

I believe in the Real Presence as I just defined it, but the RCC goes too far with it, making virtual cannibals out of its members. Paul also calls cup the "cup of blessing", which contained wine, and still called the bread, bread. Our senses tell us that, even after consecration.

 

[Nondenom40]

No, your neighbor could not. Your neighbor is not a bishop or pope, and thus, not a successor to the Apostles.

It is only arrogance if the pope does not have such authority and claims it. If the pope, in fact, has the authority, then it is not arrogance. The pope is just doing his job.

No. The Church is not a democracy. However, becasue the Church is the Sacrament of Christ, (visible sign of the invisible presence of Christ) the Faith she professes is an indication that something is revealed.

I see it as unlikely the pope would have defined the dogma.

You mean if the pope went and defined it--and no one accepted it? No. Truth does not depend on ascent. At the same time--I am not certain it is even possible that the pope could define something that the Church would categorically reject. If the pope is defining it, it means the Church believes it. The Church does not believe it because the pope defines it, rather, the pope defines it because the Church believes it.

Thus, the scenario you paint above----strikes me as an impossibility.

Or the idiocy of Protestants who don't understand Catholicism and seek to create dichotomies where there are none.

Thank you for offering your subjective opinions.

If one knows something to be true and to be revealed by God, but rejects it, can one be saved?

For example: if I know that Catholicism is false, yet remain Catholic, can I be saved? No, right?

So what is or is not truth, and believing or not believing what is or is not true has EVERYTHING to do with one's salvation.

How is believing that the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior ascended into heaven---a burden?

I find it quite delightful to believe that, and in no way burdensome. Actually---it is burdensome--I take that back. I am so overcome with joy in believing it that my heart wants to burst. I cannot contain my joy. So in that sense I guess it is burdensome. How do you contain uncontainable joy?

No, your neighbor could not. Your neighbor is not a bishop or pope, and thus, not a successor to the Apostles.

Neither is your pope. What he teaches and believes puts him squarely outside of apostolic teaching. Like all previous popes.

It is only arrogance if the pope does not have such authority and claims it. If the pope, in fact, has the authority, then it is not arrogance. The pope is just doing his job.

He does claim it, and he doesn't have the authority.

No. The Church is not a democracy.

Coulda fooled me. He asked if they thought it would be a good thing to make this dogma. Doesn't sound like its revealed by God at all does it? Can you imagine Moses coming down the mountain taking a poll whether the 10 commandments were something they thought was okay? Or did God say here take this and tell the people this is their new standard. No voting allowed. And btw, Pius 9th did the same thing when he sent out Ubi Primum before declaring marys IC.

The Church does not believe it because the pope defines it, rather, the pope defines it because the Church believes it.

Thats precisely why catholics believe this stuff today. Believe or else right? Gods wrath, Peter and Paul laying into you...Tell us another one.

Thank you for offering your subjective opinions.

Any time. Glad to help.

If one knows something to be true and to be revealed by God, but rejects it, can one be saved?

Depends on what that something is right? Reject the gospel, youre lost. Reject Paul went on one of his missionary journeys? Is believing that salvific?

How is believing that the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior ascended into heaven---a burden?

When youre forced to believe it when it has nothing to do with salvation, ya your church is heaping something on you that is 100% unnecessary.