Sin nature,

SteveB

Well-known member
Previously discussed is the sin nature of the human race, as a result of Adam's sin.

Thread 'Disagreement Upon Corrupt Natures' https://forums.carm.org/threads/disagreement-upon-corrupt-natures.10815/

Romans 5:12-18
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the giftby the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)……
….18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


This passage is the point where we come to recognize that we inherited Adam's sin nature.

Adam's sin brought death to the human race.
We may not have had the same circumstances as Adam, but in his death, the door for our sin was opened.
In this, the circumstances each of us live in, it's pretty clear that had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did.

Not by force, but by choice of our own respective choosing.

The mistake is believing that you would be able to separate yourself from knowing God and choose to not sin.

The sin is choosing to disregard God and believe you can live without God.

So, claiming that you are forced to commit sun because you inherited Adam's spiritual death is erroneous.
The fact that you want nothing to do with God is proof that you are choosing to sin.

Thankfully, God has given us the wherewithal to escape our sin and know Him.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As Adam's one act of disobedience brought death to the entire human race, so the one act of obedience brings life to everyone who comes to Jesus.

You can receive the benefits of the rightness of Jesus' obedience simply by placing your trust in Jesus.
 
[. . .] This passage [Romans 5] is the point where we come to recognize that we inherited Adam's sin nature.

Adam's sin brought death to the human race.
We may not have had the same circumstances as Adam, but in his death, the door for our sin was opened.
In this, the circumstances each of us live in, it's pretty clear that had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did. [my emphasis-K]

Not by force, but by choice of our own respective choosing.
Do you mean, "even if we had not yet fallen, even if we had not yet been given a sin nature, each of us would have disobeyed God as Adam did"?

If that is the case, what exactly is the "sin nature" which we inherited, and how is it different from Adam's original, created nature?
 
Do you mean, "even if we had not yet fallen, even if we had not yet been given a sin nature, each of us would have disobeyed God as Adam did"?

If that is the case, what exactly is the "sin nature" which we inherited, and how is it different from Adam's original, created nature?
In the simplest, most straightforward way possible, the part of our humanity that once connected us with God died that day in the garden.

Each and every single human being who has been born of a biological father inherited Adam's death. The dead spirit.

As the passage I provided says--

Rom 5:12-18 WEB 12 Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death passed to all men because all sinned. 13 (For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come. 15 But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not as through one who sinned; for the judgment came by one to condemnation, but the free gift followed many trespasses to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.) 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

This is exactly why Jesus came.

To restore us to a right relationship with God.

Not religion. Not rules or regulations. An actual relationship between us, as an individual, and God, through Jesus Christ.

Once we trust in Jesus, we are made spiritually alive and as the Ezekiel 36 passage I quoted says-- God does the impossible part. And in doing so, we are adopted by him, and become his children.
 
Greetings SteveB,
I decided not to examine that thread as it runs into 9 pages. Instead I decided to give a few brief answers to your two posts.
This passage is the point where we come to recognize that we inherited Adam's sin nature. Adam's sin brought death to the human race.
I agree.
We may not have had the same circumstances as Adam, but in his death, the door for our sin was opened.
I disagree with "in his death". It was by means of Adam's sin that the door for our sin was opened. We inherit his nature, the nature that resulted because of his sin. Exactly the change that occurred as a result of sin is not revealed, but I suggest that it could have been a natural result of sin, a direct effect of his sin, but also some change directly from God as punishment.
In this, the circumstances each of us live in, it's pretty clear that had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did.
I suggest Adam had freedom of choice and he selected the wrong way. We are not in the same circumstances, so your conclusion is not valid. God did not create Adam so that his sin was inevitable, but he was created very good.
So, claiming that you are forced to commit sin because you inherited Adam's spiritual death is erroneous.
Again you use "spiritual death", but this is incorrect. We are not "forced" to commit sin, but we have a strong bias towards following our lusts.
Thankfully, God has given us the wherewithal to escape our sin and know Him.
Yes.
In the simplest, most straightforward way possible, the part of our humanity that once connected us with God died that day in the garden.
I do not accept this concept. The death that is described in the Garden was that Adam was to return to the dust.
Each and every single human being who has been born of a biological father inherited Adam's death. The dead spirit.
Adam's spirit did not die.
Not religion. Not rules or regulations. An actual relationship between us, as an individual, and God, through Jesus Christ.
Yes.
Once we trust in Jesus, we are made spiritually alive and as the Ezekiel 36 passage I quoted says-- God does the impossible part. And in doing so, we are adopted by him, and become his children.
Yes, in a sense, but this is not a direct contrast to Adam. I did not find the Ezekiel passage.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Romans 5:12-18
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the giftby the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)……
….18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


This passage is the point where we come to recognize that we inherited Adam's sin nature.
This passage is the point where Paul gives his opinion that we inherited Adam's sin nature.
 
In the simplest, most straightforward way possible, the part of our humanity that once connected us with God died that day in the garden.

Each and every single human being who has been born of a biological father inherited Adam's death. The dead spirit.

As the passage I provided says--

Rom 5:12-18 WEB 12 Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death passed to all men because all sinned. 13 (For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come. 15 But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not as through one who sinned; for the judgment came by one to condemnation, but the free gift followed many trespasses to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.) 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

This is exactly why Jesus came.

To restore us to a right relationship with God.

Not religion. Not rules or regulations. An actual relationship between us, as an individual, and God, through Jesus Christ.

Once we trust in Jesus, we are made spiritually alive and as the Ezekiel 36 passage I quoted says-- God does the impossible part. And in doing so, we are adopted by him, and become his children.
Let me try to clarify why I asked the question. The traditional position of Christians, if I understand it correctly, is that in their innocent, pre-fallen state, Adam and Eve were capable of living a sinless life, but that no human being since the fall (except for Jesus) is capable of living a sinless life. (If that isn't your belief, then obviously you can say so, and similarly with the points I try to make below.)

You wrote: "had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did." I take it that by "in Adam's circumstances," you mean in an innocent, pre-fallen state, presented with a commandment from God and the choice of whether to obey it or to sin and disobey it.

But if each of us would have sinned, even if we were originally in an innocent, pre-fallen state, that implies that nobody in an innocent, pre-fallen state really is capable of living a sinless life.

So if it is impossible to live a sinless life, whether one is starting in an innocent, pre-fallen state or in a fallen state endowed with a sin nature, then being endowed with a sin nature is not what makes it impossible to live a sinless life.

But if being endowed with a sin nature is not something that makes it impossible to live a sinless life, what exactly is the consequence of being endowed with a sin nature? How does it effect us/change us/harm us/make us different from Adam and Eve in the pre-fallen state?
 
Greetings SteveB,
Good morning Trevor.
I decided not to examine that thread as it runs into 9 pages. Instead I decided to give a few brief answers to your two posts.
I was giving a reference for the basis of my posting this OP.
I agree.

I disagree with "in his death". It was by means of Adam's sin that the door for our sin was opened. We inherit his nature, the nature that resulted because of his sin. Exactly the change that occurred as a result of sin is not revealed, but I suggest that it could have been a natural result of sin, a direct effect of his sin, but also some change directly from God as punishment.
The physiological changes may not be detailed, but the bible seems pretty clear that the results of Adam's sin are quite clear.
1- in the day you eat thereof, dying you shall die.
2- Eve's reaction is the stuff of legends. There are many who see it as the origin of the "battle of the sexes."
3- as is stated in the Romans 5 passage I quoted, until sin entered the world, there was no death. Afterwards, death took over the entire human race. Now, there is not a single human being who lives beyond a certain point.
The oldest known people today are dying by the time they reach 80 to 122 years.
Olivia Newton John just died in her early 70's a couple days ago.
I read last night that the guy who played TJ (Roger Mosely) in the original Magnum PI TV series died too.


I suggest Adam had freedom of choice and he selected the wrong way.
Yep. He selected the way that resulted in his, and subsequently, everyone else's death.
Just as described in Romans 5.


We are not in the same circumstances, so your conclusion is not valid.
What conclusion is that?


God did not create Adam so that his sin was inevitable, but he was created very good.
I never said, implied, or inferred that his sin was inevitable. So, I'm not sure why you're coming to that conclusion.
Adam made a choice, knowing full well the consequences for choosing it. I don't see anything that would say that Adam's sin was inevitable.
Again you use "spiritual death", but this is incorrect.
Gen 2:7 WEB Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:17
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'


Dying, you shall die.
In the Hebrew interlinears, it reads- mot t'mut (die die, die the death).
In other translations, it says- surely die, certainly die,

Paul tells us in Ephesians 2
Eph 2:1 WEB You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,



We are not "forced" to commit sin, but we have a strong bias towards following our lusts.
Why do you think that is the case?
I never said forced to sin.
I stated
Not by force, but by choice of our own respective choosing

Why the "strong bias towards" sin?

We died, separated from God, because of sin. In the bible, death is separation, not cessation of existence.

Adam's sin killed his once living soul. His soul was no longer living.

Yes.

I do not accept this concept.
That's ok. I wasn't looking for your approval.
You're more than welcome to do as Luke said of the Bereans. In fact, I hope you do!
Acts 17:11.
They searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true or not.

And what Paul said to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 5:21-22.
Test all things. Abhor that which is evil and cling to the good!

So far, it seems like you have imposed more of your own ideas on what I'm saying than seeing what I've actually stated.
The death that is described in the Garden was that Adam was to return to the dust.
And yet we read in Romans 5 that until sin entered the world, there was no death.
So, it seems pretty clear that Adam's sin is the beginning of death, and the separation of the human race from God.
Notice in Genesis 4:26 we read that in those days men began to call on the name of God.
Several decades seemed to have passed by, without humans seeking God.
Adam was 130 by the time he had Seth, and Seth had a son at 105.
Cain refused to listen to God's word regarding the proper sacrifice/offering and then he refused to listen further, when warned about his rage against his brother, Abel.
Humans were clearly in a different dynamic with God.
Animal sacrifice and blood were part of the world to interact with God at that point.


Adam's spirit did not die.
Ok. Please provide a basis for this.
The first act that God did following Adam's sin and the judgment, was God killed 2 animals and removed their skins to cover Adam and Eve. Genesis 3:21.

Yes.

Yes, in a sense, but this is not a direct contrast to Adam. I did not find the Ezekiel passage.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ezekiel 36:25-27
 
This passage is the point where Paul gives his opinion that we inherited Adam's sin nature.
And?
He's been educated in the highest educational institution in Israel of his day, under the best teacher of the day.

Seems like that "opinion" under the inspiration of God's Spirit takes it to the point of being objective truth.

As Jesus said,

Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.
 
I never said, implied, or inferred that his sin was inevitable.
You said "had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did." (Meaning, presumably, each of us would have sinned by disobeying the command from God.)

Saying "anybody in those circumstances would have done thus" is the same as saying "it is inevitable that anybody in those circumstances would do thus." For example, if you say "any police officer in those circumstances would have shot the defendant," that's the same as saying "it is inevitable that a police officer in those circumstances would shoot the defendant"; if you say, "any mother in those circumstances would have died to save her child," that's the same as saying "it is inevitable that a mother in those circumstances would die to save her child"; and if you say that anybody in Adam's circumstances would have sinned, as Adam did, that's the same as saying it is inevitable that anybody in Adam's circumstances would sin.

Adam, of course, was somebody who was in Adam's circumstances. So if it is inevitable that anybody in Adam's circumstances would sin, it was inevitable that Adam would sin.

Therefore, "had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did" does seem to imply that Adam's sin was inevitable.
 
Let me try to clarify why I asked the question. The traditional position of Christians,
Ok. And what do you think that the "traditional position of Christians" is based on?
Is it a collection of beliefs built throughout history, or maybe a specific collection of writings that have been vetted in history?
Where do you think we got the ideas we have?
if I understand it correctly, is that in their innocent, pre-fallen state, Adam and Eve were capable of living a sinless life,
not JUST capable, but actually lived in complete agreement and friendship with God. I.e., were without any sin.

but that no human being since the fall (except for Jesus) is capable of living a sinless life. (If that isn't your belief, then obviously you can say so, and similarly with the points I try to make below.)
With the exception of Jesus, correct.

But, by all means, if you can find a single other person who is still alive, hundreds, or even thousands of years, please show us.
Because it's plainly stated in Leviticus 18:5, that he who does them (the commandments of the law) shall live in them.

Lev 18:5 WEB You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances, which if a man does, he shall live in them. I am Yahweh.

Even Paul notes this.
If someone could keep God's ordinances and statutes, they would be able to live forever.
James tells us in his letter, if you break just one commandment, you break the entire law, and death comes.

The irony of this is that the only people who would be able to keep the whole law would be people in complete, and whole communion with God. So trying to figure out how to be a morally pure person and go without any relationship with God is oxymoronic.
Adam and Eve had a completely connected relationship with God and each other.


You wrote: "had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did."
Yep.
I take it that by "in Adam's circumstances," you mean in an innocent, pre-fallen state, presented with a commandment from God and the choice of whether to obey it or to sin and disobey it.
I realize that the entire human race following the flood have absolutely no clue what life was like in Adam's world.
He had a garden which was created by God, with every single delight he could have wanted. He was given a woman, who was literally created just for him.
She was his equal in every way, yet opposite, in that she was a female.
They walked around all day long naked, and had no shame or embarrassment.
This means that Adam and Eve were able to take great pleasure in their heart and mind in just taking in each other's physical beauty.
The garden was stocked with everything they could have wanted.
They were caretakers of the world and specifically the garden.

They were told by God to have lots and lots and lots of sex so they could populate the entire world.

There was no hatred, no envy, nothing but pure, and unlimited joy, satisfaction, love, and happiness.
For reasons unknown, Eve was curious about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That fruit had properties that would result in their dying, but something else about it had the appearance of desirability and a knowledge beyond the knowledge and experience they were presently enjoying.

Adam had been explicitly told by God that if he ate the fruit, "dying, you will die." In the Hebrew, it says, "mennu mot t'mut."

Many translations state, surely you will die. Die the death, certainly die, etc...

So, it was more than just a matter of choosing something that had something bad about it.


It's not like he was given a choice between a cactus leaf, covered in spines, or a peach.

We have no idea what the fruit actually was.

But for the reasons described in Genesis 3, Eve ate the fruit.

Now.... think about this.
God told Adam- eat and you die.
Eve was Adam's dream girl. The apple of his eye, she was created by God, from his own body, explicitly for Adam.

So, knowing the above, Adam is now faced with what strikes me as an impossible choice...

Don't eat the fruit and you lose the woman of your dreams. There is no other you can go pick. She was it. The only woman on earth.

Or... eat the fruit with her, knowing full well what God said, so you're throwing it back in God's face, saying-- I'd rather die with her, than live alone with you, in paradise.

This isn't a matter of, oops! I slipped and fell.

This is a-- screw you God! thing.
An "in your face" moment that cuts you off from the very source, and cause of your life and everything you have been given.

This is exactly why I stated what I did about we'd do exactly the same thing.

Being a married man, and loving my wife the way I do.... I can honestly say that I have already done what Adam did, but there was no fruit that was involved. There was just me and my wife. And while it took me years to recognize it, I came to understand that what Adam did, I did.
I chose my wife over God. Thankfully, God provides Jesus to be my covering of clothing, so I can easily come to God, and see his provisions for the two of us.

Other people I've known have also done this too.

Others have walked away from their wives, and refused to love them wholly, and completely.





But if each of us would have sinned, even if we were originally in an innocent, pre-fallen state, that implies that nobody in an innocent, pre-fallen state really is capable of living a sinless life.
Not anymore.
Once sin enters, all sin.
This is exactly what Paul said in Romans 5.


So if it is impossible to live a sinless life, whether one is starting in an innocent, pre-fallen state or in a fallen state endowed with a sin nature, then being endowed with a sin nature is not what makes it impossible to live a sinless life.
Adam and Eve had only one thing they had to avoid... eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That's it! Just don't eat that fruit.

But, apparently because he didn't want to lose his wife, and would rather die, instead of live, he followed her lead, and ate the fruit.

It's curious how we see in Genesis 3, God tells Adam-- because you listened to the voice of your wife......
And yet centuries later, we see where God told Abraham, listen to the voice of your wife, Sarah. After he had done so before, and had offspring which it's believed by many today is the first ancestor of the Muslim people who seek to utterly destroy the offspring of his other son.

I.e., Islamic people fighting against Israel.

I.e., had Abraham not listened to Sarah in the first place, and just waited for God to fulfill his promise to bring Isaac, today's conflict in the middle east would not have happened.


But if being endowed with a sin nature is not something that makes it impossible to live a sinless life, what exactly is the consequence of being endowed with a sin nature?
In the bible, death is not cessation of existence. It's separation.

So, as Adam was created by God as a "living soul", that part of Adam that was "living", according to Genesis 2:17, has become separated from him.
It's like there's a disconnect.

In 1 Corinthians 15 we read that Jesus is the "last Adam." You can read about this in the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians.
This is a curious them in the bible.
The First Adam was a living soul. The last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.
In order for Jesus to be "the last Adam", i.e., being compared with Adam, he must have the same attributes as Adam.
A man.
Capable of not sinning.
While not entirely demonstrable, it's raised a question in my mind about the nature of Jesus which would be similar to Adam.
 
How does it effect us/change us/harm us/make us different from Adam and Eve in the pre-fallen state?
Adam's living soul has died. It's been separated from him, limiting him from knowing God in the manner he knew God before he ate the fruit.

Years ago there was a lot of talk in the scientific community about what they termed- junk DNA.

About a decade ago, I read another scientific article from a scientist who believes in creationism.

In making the connection between the two sides of the discussion, I found myself wondering if the junk DNA was actually the part of our humanity that connects us with God and our "living" soul.

As stated above.... beyond a couple scientific articles, and the bible.... I have just an hypothesis of the details of the problem.

I've repeatedly looked at the chapter 3 discussion about what happened after all was said and done with Adam and Eve.
They were booted out of the garden. Angels were placed on the boundary of the garden.... explicitly to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life and thereby living forever.

Thus, it would appear to me that if the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil could result in a death and the fruit of the tree of life results in living forever.... even after having eaten the fruit of the former.... it raises the question about this being a DNA issue.

The former killed/separated them from God. And in that state, had they eaten the fruit of the tree of life, it would have sealed them in their bodies forever, separated from God. A fate more cruel than the original separation.
So God blocked them, and prevented them from getting the latter fruit.

Bible teachers that I've studied under have said 3 things took place when Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
1- they were separated from God in their living soul, dying.

2- in Genesis 1, Adam and Eve were essentially the King and Queen of planet earth. The supreme caretakers of the planet. Their death, resulted in a new caretaker. Someone who doesn't die.
The thought is that the devil took over as king of the world. This idea is iterated with the temptation of Jesus in the gospels.
The devil shows Jesus the kingdoms of the world and says, these are mine to give to whomever I wish. Bow down and worship me and I will give them to you.

What I've long found curious is that Jesus doesn't dispute that claim by the devil. He only responded with.... it is written, you shall worship YHVH your God and him only shall you serve.

3- in the devil taking over as king/caretaker, the world went to hell in a hand bucket, riding on the back of a nuclear missile.
Natural catastrophes, evils both of humanity and nature.

Things the human race never would have experienced had Adam not eaten the fruit.

We're subjected to cruelty, death, futility, violence, diseases, heartaches beyond despair, hopelessness,....

And it's in these things that God shows up, and intervenes as Jesus Christ.

He lives a life that is in complete and total agreement with God.
He fulfills the biblical prophecies defining how we could know it was actually God's messiah.
He then takes on the very worst, and cruelest evils that humans could throw and foist upon him, and dies the most gruesome, and humiliating death possible...

Then right when the devil thinks... I've won! The world is mine forever.... Jesus is raised from the dead, conquering the last enemy... death.

Now, everyone who comes to Jesus and places their trust in Jesus, they will be given eternal life, wholly restored to a right relationship with God.

What Adam lost in eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Jesus regained!

Jesus is now the King of heaven and earth.
Everything, and all power and authority belongs to him and he is giving that power and authority to his followers to act as ambassadors to let the entire human race know that they can be given the inheritance of God, as a joint heir of Jesus (Romans 8:14-17).

As SR Haddon said in the movie, Contact, wanna take a ride?

If so, call on the name of Jesus.

He said,

Whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved.
 
You said "had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did." (Meaning, presumably, each of us would have sinned by disobeying the command from God.)
I detailed this in a subsequent post.
Post# 10.
Saying "anybody in those circumstances would have done thus" is the same as saying "it is inevitable that anybody in those circumstances would do thus."
Nope. I understand why you think that, but no.

For example, if you say "any police officer in those circumstances would have shot the defendant," that's the same as saying "it is inevitable that a police officer in those circumstances would shoot the defendant"; if you say, "any mother in those circumstances would have died to save her child," that's the same as saying "it is inevitable that a mother in those circumstances would die to save her child"; and if you say that anybody in Adam's circumstances would have sinned, as Adam did, that's the same as saying it is inevitable that anybody in Adam's circumstances would sin.
I know a perfect way to verify your claim...
Travel back in time and demonstrate otherwise.

Adam, of course, was somebody who was in Adam's circumstances. So if it is inevitable that anybody in Adam's circumstances would sin, it was inevitable that Adam would sin.
Adam had the best possible conditions and situations.
I explained that in post 10.



Therefore, "had we been in Adam's circumstances, each of us would have done exactly what he did" does seem to imply that Adam's sin was inevitable.
Nope.
It's recognizing the conditions that Adam had, and seeing human nature for what it was.
 
Greetings again SteveB,
Adam's sin killed his once living soul. His soul was no longer living.
Previously you claimed his spirit died, now you say his soul was killed and dead. Some claim that man's soul is immortal, but I believe that man is mortal. The word soul in Genesis 2:7 speaks concerning his body, his living creature, which is the same word used for the animals that were created. Rather the process of dying commenced Genesis 3:19. I consider that the term "the day" could represent "when" rather than the concept of the immediate day, and speaks of the sentence rather than the execution of the sentence.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again SteveB,

Previously you claimed his spirit died, now you say his soul was killed and dead. Some claim that man's soul is immortal, but I believe that man is mortal.
Ok. So your beliefs then are the epitome of objective truth?

YHVH says that we will live forever. It's simply a matter of location.

Those who believe in Jesus will live in paradise with him, but those who believe in anything other than Jesus will spend their eternity in the lake of fire.



The word soul in Genesis 2:7 speaks concerning his body, his living creature, which is the same word used for the animals that were created.
Do you have a basis for this definition of the soul?

The strong's concordance has a fairly detailed description of the word translated soul. Nefesh

And because there are 738 uses, it seems like it's possible to get a better picture of what the soul actually is.

As far as inter changing the words, I'm not having a problem with it.
Especially when the bible itself appears to do so.
I'm familiar with the two different Hebrew words for each.
Nefesh, ruach.
Why they appear to be used interchangeably, I'm still learning.
Throughout the entire bible, there are 523 uses of spirit. It appears that just over half are in the old testament.

Original: נפשׁ

Transliteration: nephesh

Phonetic: neh'-fesh

BDB Definition:

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
living being
living being (with life in the blood)
the man himself, self, person or individual
seat of the appetites
seat of emotions and passions
activity of mind
dubious
activity of the will
dubious
activity of the character
dubious
Origin: from H5314

TWOT entry: 1395a

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

Strong's Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality ; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Total KJV Occurrences: 738

Rather the process of dying commenced Genesis 3:19. I consider that the term "the day" could represent "when" rather than the concept of the immediate day, and speaks of the sentence rather than the execution of the sentence.
The bible is pretty clear that Adam's life changed at the moment they ate the fruit.
Prior to this incident, Adam would take regular walks in the afternoon with God.
Afterwards, Adam and Eve hid themselves from God, because the recognized they were naked and ashamed. Why then? They were naked before they ate the fruit and they were not ashamed.

So, there was an immediate response to their eating the fruit.

Ever done any gardening?
If so, have you ever just pulled a weed out of the ground and left it there to come back to later, and grab all the other weeds/debris from cleaning out your garden?
Ever notice how the weeds/cut debris withers rather quickly?
I've long found myself wondering if this is similar to what happened to Adam and Eve.
Especially when Jesus describes us as branches to his being the vine in John 15.

Adam's separation from God began his long journey towards physical death.
He immediately experienced separation from God by his living soul dying. The death of his living soul resulted in his experiencing physical death later.

This is described in the new testament, in several locations.
They died "spiritually" and then years later they died physically. Much like the weeds out of my garden. Within moments, the signs of death of the weeds were obvious. Wilting, a lessening of the quality of life in the plant. And what strikes me is that the plant is laying right on top of the location I removed it from.
The only difference is... I removed the plant from its source of life... the roots are no longer able to draw out the life giving nutrients and water stored in the soil.

In like manner, when we're separated from God we cannot draw our life from him, and we wither away and eventually we die.



Kind regards
Trevor
Indeed. To you as well.
 
Ok. And what do you think that the "traditional position of Christians" is based on?
Is it a collection of beliefs built throughout history, or maybe a specific collection of writings that have been vetted in history?
Where do you think we got the ideas we have?

not JUST capable, but actually lived in complete agreement and friendship with God. I.e., were without any sin.
With the exception of Jesus, correct.
OK, so your position is, so far as I can tell, the one that I referred to as "the traditional position of Christians": Adam and Eve were capable of living a sinless life, we in the fallen state are not.

But, by all means, if you can find a single other person who is still alive, hundreds, or even thousands of years, please show us.
Because it's plainly stated in Leviticus 18:5, that he who does them (the commandments of the law) shall live in them.

Lev 18:5 WEB You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances, which if a man does, he shall live in them. I am Yahweh.

Even Paul notes this.
If someone could keep God's ordinances and statutes, they would be able to live forever.
James tells us in his letter, if you break just one commandment, you break the entire law, and death comes.

The irony of this is that the only people who would be able to keep the whole law would be people in complete, and whole communion with God. So trying to figure out how to be a morally pure person and go without any relationship with God is oxymoronic.
Adam and Eve had a completely connected relationship with God and each other.
This is basically a variation on the theme we've already agreed to: the traditional Christian position is that Adam and Eve were capable of living sinless lives, but that we in the fallen world are not.

Yep.

I realize that the entire human race following the flood have absolutely no clue what life was like in Adam's world.
He had a garden which was created by God, with every single delight he could have wanted. He was given a woman, who was literally created just for him.
She was his equal in every way, yet opposite, in that she was a female.
They walked around all day long naked, and had no shame or embarrassment.
This means that Adam and Eve were able to take great pleasure in their heart and mind in just taking in each other's physical beauty.
The garden was stocked with everything they could have wanted.
They were caretakers of the world and specifically the garden.

They were told by God to have lots and lots and lots of sex so they could populate the entire world.

There was no hatred, no envy, nothing but pure, and unlimited joy, satisfaction, love, and happiness.
For reasons unknown, Eve was curious about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That fruit had properties that would result in their dying, but something else about it had the appearance of desirability and a knowledge beyond the knowledge and experience they were presently enjoying.

Adam had been explicitly told by God that if he ate the fruit, "dying, you will die." In the Hebrew, it says, "mennu mot t'mut."

Many translations state, surely you will die. Die the death, certainly die, etc...

So, it was more than just a matter of choosing something that had something bad about it.


It's not like he was given a choice between a cactus leaf, covered in spines, or a peach.

We have no idea what the fruit actually was.

But for the reasons described in Genesis 3, Eve ate the fruit.

Now.... think about this.
God told Adam- eat and you die.
Eve was Adam's dream girl. The apple of his eye, she was created by God, from his own body, explicitly for Adam.

So, knowing the above, Adam is now faced with what strikes me as an impossible choice...

Don't eat the fruit and you lose the woman of your dreams. There is no other you can go pick. She was it. The only woman on earth.

Or... eat the fruit with her, knowing full well what God said, so you're throwing it back in God's face, saying-- I'd rather die with her, than live alone with you, in paradise.

This isn't a matter of, oops! I slipped and fell.

This is a-- screw you God! thing.
An "in your face" moment that cuts you off from the very source, and cause of your life and everything you have been given.

This is exactly why I stated what I did about we'd do exactly the same thing.

Being a married man, and loving my wife the way I do.... I can honestly say that I have already done what Adam did, but there was no fruit that was involved. There was just me and my wife. And while it took me years to recognize it, I came to understand that what Adam did, I did.
I chose my wife over God. Thankfully, God provides Jesus to be my covering of clothing, so I can easily come to God, and see his provisions for the two of us.

Other people I've known have also done this too.

Others have walked away from their wives, and refused to love them wholly, and completely.
So by "in Adam's circumstances," you don't mean "in an innocent, unfallen state," you mean "facing the dilemma: be cut off from your wife, or be cut off from God"?

If that's what you mean by "in Adam's circumstances," are you saying that anybody in an innocent, unfallen state would have chosen to be cut off from God, or only that anybody in a fallen state, with a sin nature would have made that choice?

Not anymore.
But I wasn't asking about what happens now, in the fallen state; I was asking if you thought that all of us, if we were in Paradise, in an unfallen state, would still have sinned if given enough temptation.

Once sin enters, all sin.
This is exactly what Paul said in Romans 5.

Adam and Eve had only one thing they had to avoid... eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That's it! Just don't eat that fruit.

But, apparently because he didn't want to lose his wife, and would rather die, instead of live, he followed her lead, and ate the fruit.
My question was whether you think that everybody, even if they were still innocent and unfallen, would have done the same.

[Skipping some.]

In the bible, death is not cessation of existence. It's separation.

So, as Adam was created by God as a "living soul", that part of Adam that was "living", according to Genesis 2:17, has become separated from him.
It's like there's a disconnect.
And if we are disconnected from God, then what is the result? (I mean the result for us as individuals, not the result for the planet and the human race, which is what you discuss in another post.)
 
I detailed this in a subsequent post.
Post# 10.
I responded to that, in the post above this.

Nope. I understand why you think that, but no.
Is there any specific reason why you say that?

I know a perfect way to verify your claim...
Travel back in time and demonstrate otherwise.
If someone claims, "the following two sentences have the same meaning," time travel doesn't enter into the issue one way or another. The only question is whether the two sentences have the same meaning today. And if you want to dispute the claim that the two sentences "anybody in those circumstances would have done thus" and "it is inevitable that anybody in those circumstances would do thus" have the same meaning, the best way to do so would be to would be to show some pair of sentences in that form which clearly did not mean the same thing.

For example, if someone said that the two sentences "he's the best of all time at what he does" and "he's perfect at what he does" mean the same thing, you could easily refute them by saying "Babe Ruth was the best hitter of all time, but he wasn't perfect as a hitter; he often struck out." Can you do something like that for my claim?

Adam had the best possible conditions and situations.
I explained that in post 10.
This doesn't affect the logic of the argument.

If anybody were in Adam's circumstances, it would be inevitable that they would sin.
Adam was in Adam's circumstances.
Therefore, it was inevitable that Adam would sin.

It doesn't matter how you describe the contents of Adam's circumstances; the syllogism is still valid on its face. If you want to deny the conclusion, you have to either deny one of the premises, or show that it's not really a valid syllogism. (For example, because one or more of the terms is ambiguous or equivocal.)

Nope.
It's recognizing the conditions that Adam had, and seeing human nature for what it was.
Again, you aren't saying what's wrong with the premise or the logic of my argument. You could say, for example, that by "anybody in Adam's circumstances" you meant to exclude Adam himself, and therefore the conclusion didn't follow.
 
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OK, so your position is, so far as I can tell, the one that I referred to as "the traditional position of Christians": Adam and Eve were capable of living a sinless life, we in the fallen state are not.
I'm asking you about where you think "traditional Christian position" came from.
Aren't you able to answer that? 🤷🏽‍♂️

This is basically a variation on the theme we've already agreed to: the traditional Christian position is that Adam and Eve were capable of living sinless lives, but that we in the fallen world are not.
That is what the bible says.
Do yourself a favor and actually take the time to read the bible for the purpose of understanding and learning.
It'll make you have a better picture of what the basis for biblical christianity is about.
So by "in Adam's circumstances," you don't mean "in an innocent, unfallen state," you mean "facing the dilemma: be cut off from your wife, or be cut off from God"?
She would die if he did not eat the fruit. They both die if he ate the fruit with her.
The curious thing about this is that when Adam is confronted by God about it, he blames God, and throws Eve "under the bus."

The woman whom you gave to be with me gave me the fruit and I did eat!

Talking about a low blow. It's your fault God! The woman handed me the fruit and I ate it!


If that's what you mean by "in Adam's circumstances," are you saying that anybody in an innocent, unfallen state would have chosen to be cut off from God, or only that anybody in a fallen state, with a sin nature would have made that choice?
In Adam's unfallen state.


But I wasn't asking about what happens now, in the fallen state; I was asking if you thought that all of us, if we were in Paradise, in an unfallen state, would still have sinned if given enough temptation.
Yep.

My question was whether you think that everybody, even if they were still innocent and unfallen, would have done the same.
That is the commonly held belief of every pastor I've ever heard talk about it. And over the course of the past 45 years, that's a good number of people who are highly educated in the bible and christianity.
And if we are disconnected from God, then what is the result? (I mean the result for us as individuals, not the result for the planet and the human race, which is what you discuss in another post.)
Cutting us, as individuals, from God.
This means that upon your physical death, you'd go to hell, which is a prison, and according to Luke 16, is hot, miserable and there is no hope of reprieve. Then, after 1000+ years of being in hell, awaiting your final judgment, you stand before God and give an account for your life.
Every word, every thought, every action, and every failure to act when you should have acted. You'll then be shown the book of life, through which a search will be done, looking for your name. Once it's determined that your name wasn't in there, you will spend your eternity in the lake of fire.

Jesus is a savior for the individual person.
Each individual person must be born spiritually to enter heaven at death.

Please don't wait to come to him. Nobody knows what the time of their death is.
Roger Mosely and Olivia Newton John just died. While everyone dies, not everyone will go to heaven. Jesus came to save us from the consequences of our sin.

Come while you can.
 
I'm asking you about where you think "traditional Christian position" came from.
Aren't you able to answer that? 🤷🏽‍♂️
The early church fathers made these deductions about who did and did not have the capacity to live sinless lives on the basis of passages from the Bible, and the Catholic church, Orthodox church and the early Protestant churches agreed with those deductions.

Since you are not claiming I was wrong in my summary of the traditional Christian position, why are you anxious to know what my basis was?

[Skipping some.]

Komodo said:
But I wasn't asking about what happens now, in the fallen state; I was asking if you thought that all of us, if we were in Paradise, in an unfallen state, would still have sinned if given enough temptation.

Yep.
Thank you. That makes your position clear enough. So my argument remains:

If anybody in an unfallen state would still have eventually sinned, then it is inevitable that anybody in an unfallen state would sin.
Adam was in an unfallen state.
Therefore it was inevitable that Adam would sin.

I've given my reason, in the post above yours, for saying that the first premise holds up.

[The effect of a sin nature is] Cutting us, as individuals, from God.
This means that upon your physical death, you'd go to hell, which is a prison, and according to Luke 16, is hot, miserable and there is no hope of reprieve.
But you believe that all would sin, both those without a sin nature and those with a sin nature; and you believe that all who sin go to hell (unless God intervenes to save them); so you can't believe that it is a sin nature which causes us to go to hell, can you?
 
Greetings again SteveB,
Ok. So your beliefs then are the epitome of objective truth?
No, I represent a view that is not very popular. Your statements seemed to me obscure or ambiguous.
YHVH says that we will live forever. It's simply a matter of location. Those who believe in Jesus will live in paradise with him, but those who believe in anything other than Jesus will spend their eternity in the lake of fire.
I believe on the basis of Genesis 3:19 that those that are sinners will die and I do not accept eternal torments in hell. I also believe that the faithful will be given everlasting life in the Kingdom of God on earth, Paradise, the Garden of Eden restored, not going to heaven at death and immortal souls.
Do you have a basis for this definition of the soul? He immediately experienced separation from God by his living soul dying.
Adam when created IS a living soul, not possessing a soul or after sinning his living soul dying. Perhaps we should start in the Genesis record when discussing Adam:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (ESV): then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Genesis 2:7 (NASB95): Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 (NIV84): the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Adam was a living soul, creature, being before and after he sinned.

Genesis 2:7 is quoted in the following and the word "natural" is cognate with the word "soul":
1 Corinthians 15:42–46 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Greetings again SteveB,

No, I represent a view that is not very popular. Your statements seemed to me obscure or ambiguous.
Hmmm... that raises a lot of questions.
I believe on the basis of Genesis 3:19 that those that are sinners will die and I do not accept eternal torments in hell.
So, do you recognize that Jesus talks about hell, and the lake of fire and just don't like it, or do you outright reject any description in the bible about this issue?
I don't like hell, and the lake of fire, but it's because of this that I have taken/made the time to learn to understand it, and then make sure that I discuss it.

And in light of Ezekiel 18, and 33, discussing it is an absolute imperative!

In 33, God says he will hold us accountable if we don't warn others who are perishing, to turn to YHVH from our sin and place our trust in Jesus. He goes so far to say- their blood will be on our hands! As though we murdered them ourselves!
That's not something I relish, in the least.
I also believe that the faithful will be given everlasting life in the Kingdom of God on earth, Paradise, the Garden of Eden restored, not going to heaven at death and immortal souls.
Sounds like jehovah's witnesses.
Well, since you are obviously not paying attention to what the bible says about this, let's say that for the followers of Jesus, when we die, we go to be with Jesus in heaven. When he returns to the earth to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, we return with him, as described in Revelation 19.
Then, once the thousand years is done, and the great white throne judgment is complete, YHVH will create a new heavens and a new earth.
Then we who follow Jesus and those who believe him in the millennium will enter God's Kingdom in eternity. Revelation 21-22.

Part of the problem here isn't that you're not invited, but that if you are a JW, you have not been born spiritually.
I realize that JW's believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven. But that's just not the case.
Jesus was quite clear about this.
Unless you are born again by God's Spirit, you cannot enter or see God's Kingdom.
This means that you cannot be a part of his domain at all.... unless you repent and trust in Jesus, then God's Spirit will come and dwell in you, and regenerate your life and make you born again.

Adam when created IS a living soul, not possessing a soul or after sinning his living soul dying. Perhaps we should start in the Genesis record when discussing Adam:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (ESV): then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Genesis 2:7 (NASB95): Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 (NIV84): the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Adam was a living soul, creature, being before and after he sinned.
Adam's soul died, as described in Genesis 2:17, and Genesis 3.
And I never said anything about possessing or being.
Romans 5 is really clear about this.
Before sin, there was no death.
Death entered the world because Adam sinned.
Genesis 2:7 is quoted in the following and the word "natural" is cognate with the word "soul":
1 Corinthians 15:42–46 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
And this passage is not in question.


Kind regards
Trevor
Indeed.
 
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