It's a consequence of who is being subdued by a confessed ignorance, a professed ignorance.No, I'm saying how do we know there was ever a "beginning". How do we know there hasn't always been something.
It's a consequence of who is being subdued by a confessed ignorance, a professed ignorance.No, I'm saying how do we know there was ever a "beginning". How do we know there hasn't always been something.
Don't you find it interesting that we agree that we see and understand so little of what we are actually able to in this transcended world around us, but you don't stop at that level of common ignorance in your assertions? No, you take a giant step over the 96% of the unknown that is available to us, ignore it, and instead try to define the transcendent that isn't available to us - for us. How do you rate? Why don't you stick to what you can possibly know?
Do you know why it is so easy for you to ignore the 96% and just go for the transcendent? Because the 96% takes effort. That knowledge many are too lazy to study, so you try to make a stab at the transcendent instead because it can't be defined or studied by the transcended world so you have free reign to make up whatever you want. It's easy, and cheap.
What is my concept of Gods that don't exist? Easy.... Any sentient disembodied mind that creates and directs whatever it desires by the power of it's will.
Not the sole, but primary.
Otherwise, you're making yourself a creator and worshiper of false gods.
It leaves you just as dead as the atheists.
Indeed.
We're instructed in the Proverbs and by Jesus himself on this.
The very concept of repent is based on the word, metanoia. Metanoia simply means to change your mind.
In this application, it means to change your mind about God, and his ways, to agree with him.
In June 1977, I knew nothing about all this bible stuff.
I was a pothead, stoner, used various drugs, alcohol and whatever else I could find to numb the truth of my life and world.
I despised man-made religious beliefs. I'd talked with a variety of people who claimed numerous different ideas and beliefs about gods, God, and philosophy. None of them were of interest to me.
Then one night I was invited to a church where they talked about Jesus.
Not the Jesus of religion. But a Jesus who was real, alive, and in our every day world.
Still, nothing really struck me about it. Then I observed something that struck a cord. It got to the very core of my beliefs about life in general. That was enough to stop me dead in my tracks, and get passed all the people and all the arguments and debates about God, to the point where I asked God himself.
Are you for real? Is this Jesus stuff I'm hearing for real, or just another pile of religious bs?
Two very simple, and primal questions. I didn't want to be religious. I'd previously been explained that I would not fit in the world of religious people. I hated suits, and I'm not really all that nice a guy.
What stunned me is that God responded to me. He showed me something that I'd never perceived before then.
It was that very encounter that caused me to respond- I want to know that Jesus.
So, I began to learn. It took time, and I had my ups and downs. But I kept moving forward and learning.
You don't have to figure it out for yourself.
YHVH himself and Jesus Christ will make themselves known as knowable to you. Simply for the asking.
We read- whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved.
Then why not take the time to learn to follow Jesus?
It's a curious thing about this.
In the Law we read,
You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your MIND.
Jesus reiterated that when asked what the two great commandments were in Matthew 22.
I have a book here, titled- Love God with all your mind. The author is JP Moreland.
It's older (1997), so I'd say you should be able to get it for a lower price than when it was brand new.
Love your God with all your mind book buy https://g.co/kgs/wsqQA9
There is no indication that anything I do in this life will affect my "eternal destiny."Isn't it nice to know that you and you alone are responsible for your own eternal destiny.
You get to decide whether you want to live in a paradise designed explicitly for your extensive happiness.
Or, in a place where no thought was given for you.
There is no indication that anything I do in this life will affect my "eternal destiny."
Yes but that won't, as far as i know, affect my "eternal destiny".But you pursue some purpose in life, yes or no.
There is nothing to show that 1,2 or 3 will get you to knowledge of the existence of God.The way I look at it, on how to come to the existence of God.
There are three ways man comes to know the existence of God:
1. By man's intelligence and his rational faculty and his reasoning process.
2. By reading the Bible for Christians and Orthodox Jews, and the Koran for Muslims.
3. By meditation.
I know God exists by the No. 1 way.
Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
c. So, man you and I and all humans, we are the evidence to the existence of God.
d. Therefore God exists.
Really? All you are doing is making categories. I can do that also, existence has two forms:In ultimate summation, existence is of two kinds:
Leaping so many steps, Your defining necessary properties of the very thing you're trying to prove exists, talk about circular reasoning.a. Permanent self-existent kind which is God.
I would think everything is transient given enough time.b. Transient kind which is anything like for example, you and I, we have a beginning and an ending.
No, its just word salad and false reasoning - here is an example of similar:So, we implicate the existence of God our creator.
Why don't you stick to what you can possibly know?
Not quite accurate. I said you have no warrant to assert a transcendent sentient and willful God-force creating and directing nature because there is no observation in nature that leads one to that assumption, not even logically. So the best model of nature so far is that the nature we experience is not created by the will of any being, but generates itself as a force of its own nature. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker..Hi 5wize, we were talking about nature, if memory serves, you opined that nature is all there is, and I asked how you knew that nature is all there is, and you answered, because you observed nature, and found out nature is all there is.
I never said you claimed nature is not there. I just claimed that if you cannot know 96% of what is in front of you, how can you suddenly know 100% of what isn't, such as the forces of existence prior to the big-bang that generated the nature we experience. The best model you have is the nature in front of you and it does not direct you back to any eternally existent willful being. Maybe just some more eternally existent nature that we are not privy to. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker..At this point I said that scientists know only a mere 4% of the universe, the remainder of 96% they are in the dark.
Now you are telling me that I cannot just jump over the 96% of the universe and declare that nature is not there but God is there.
No. Wrong. Just because you have no insights into whatever the nature of existence was prior to our big-bang you don't get to assert one as fanciful as some being that willed it all. If you claim a God-being can exist eternally outside of time and space I can assert that some type of nature can exist eternally outside of time and space. The model of nature we observe points to that because you cannot trace back the generation of anything we witness, be it protons, electrons, atoms, elements, molecules, cells, trees, and brains, to any willful hand of God like you can trace a watch back to a watchmaker. These things act like they were always present in this space-time and forming other things in accordance to natural rules that take care of themselves quite nicely without the directing hand of some willful being.Okay then, let us just talk about nature in just the 4% of the universe scientists know.
Scientists tell us that there was the Big Bang which is the start of the universe, and at that point in time and in space, there was no nature yet.
You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker, so no.What about God, was He there already?
We already agree that existence always was so there is no such thing as nothingness. You assert that the nature of existence prior to the big bang was some willful, directing God-being. I assert it was just a different form of natural existence that produced what we experience now. My model is not fanciful or anthropomorphic. You are forced to use transcended terms like being and create and direct and ordered to create your own transcendent ideal of a god-being. This is how I now you are wrong immediately. You can't get there from here, not even logically. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker. What we call a being did not show up in the timeline of nature until very recently. Now you take that concept of a naturally generated being and pretend there was always an eternal one - without a body - willing stuff like comets, volcanoes and lava and cavemen and disease. It's really kind of silly when you think about it.Of course God was and is present all the time and everywhere, because the Big Bang did not come from absolute nothingness.
Nope. Show me the order. There is more evidence that existence itself generated mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me without any hand of a willful directing being acting as some short order cook. You cannot reverse engineer anything except man made things back to any creator being. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker.... we are the only creator beings. The rest is eternally existent nature of both the measurable and unmeasurable types.And God ordered things so that nature eventually came into existnce, the nature where there are mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me.
There is more evidence that existence itself generated mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me without any hand of a willful directing being as stated above.
Believing that what you say is true and recognizing that the knowledge of scientists is mediocre, it is only 4%, this mediocrity is because they only know what is apparent. In fact, the wisers know that the worlds were framed by the Word of God-the Word is GOD-, yeah, the Word is GOD, so that things which are seen-are apparent- were not made of things which do appear-maybe 96%. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/Hi 5wize, we were talking about nature, if memory serves, you opined that nature is all there is, and I asked how you knew that nature is all there is, and you answered, because you observed nature, and found out nature is all there is.
At this point I said that scientists know only a mere 4% of the universe, the remainder of 96% they are in the dark.
Now you are telling me that I cannot just jump over the 96% of the universe and declare that nature is not there but God is there.
Okay then, let us just talk about nature in just the 4% of the universe scientists know.
Scientists tell us that there was the Big Bang which is the start of the universe, and at that point in time and in space, there was no nature yet.
What about God, was He there already?
Of course God was and is present all the time and everywhere, because the Big Bang did not come from absolute nothingness.
And God ordered things so that nature eventually came into existnce, the nature where there are mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me.
The word of God is an assumption, not a mystery. It would be a mystery if we ever observed it work. We never observe it at work in any cause and effect observation, so to say some ancient religious whole cloth mental fabrication is an actual mystery skips a lot steps.Believing that what you say is true and recognizing that the knowledge of scientists is mediocre, it is only 4%, this mediocrity is because they only know what is apparent. In fact, the wisers know that the worlds were framed by the Word of God-the Word is GOD-, yeah, the Word is GOD, so that things which are seen-are apparent- were not made of things which do appear-maybe 96%. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/
The word of God is an assumption, not a mystery. It would be a mystery if we ever observed it work. We never observe it at work ..........
Why do you think that is?Hi SteveB, you believe in the authority of the Bible, that is why you are citing verses in the Bible.
Experience with Jesus and the bible.Now I ask you, why do you believe in the authority of th Bible?
Yep.You will tell me, because the Bible is reliable.
Experience with Jesus and God over the course of the past 45+ years.So I ask you, how do you know the Bible is realiable?
Nope.And you will tell me, because there is authority in the Bible.
Actually, there is. You just continue to dismiss it.There is no indication that anything I do in this life will affect my "eternal destiny."
How do we know there was ever "nothing"?
What need? Why do we need a God?
Many ways....that's another discussion.How do you know it is the Koran that is false? Maybe it is the Bible that is false.
There always has been something....God the creator. A God that has always existed. There is the requirement for somwthing to have always existed if there is anything existing today....or will you be able to argue that from nothing something can self create...be and not be at the same time.No, I'm saying how do we know there was ever a "beginning". How do we know there hasn't always been something.
You could never show an end to end example of this phenom of God's word. You just point to sunsets and rats and your feelings and say, "See"!?!"We," i.e. those of you who have never observed it at "work." LOL.