Reformedguy
Well-known member
?Dead horse ?
?Dead horse ?
Much more than your purpose was determined before the foundation of the world. God chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world.It’s not rocket science!
God made you for a purpose and that purpose was determined “before the foundation of the world” (Prov 16:4).
Are you saying that you're in Christ before the foundation of the world but not saved until much later, then what does that make you in the interval: an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly. Sounds like the not-yet-repented regenerated anomaly Calvinists promote.If your purpose included that you be “in Christ” then and ultimately saved in the end then it can be said God “chose you in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4).
That is before the foundation of the world?This purpose plays out IN the time line of creation. You become “in Christ” at the moment God had predetermined that you be in Christ within the time line of creation.
God Planned, Purpose, and Determined All Things “before the foundation of the world”… and this included wether you would be “in Christ” or not.
That has you as an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly for a period of time?The “timeline of creation” is the merely the outplay of his purposes.
My point I was making was actually to mimic the sense that I get from a lot of Calvinist who think it's wrong and horrible to challenge a position about God when they quote Rom 9:19,20. I believe in the Spirit in how he meant this verse to be used but not how Calvinists think about it.God also can not create a God like himself!
Do you agree?… or is this “telling God what he can and can’t do”?
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I think it’s @Sketo in the video , he can correct me if I’m wrong.My point I was making was actually to mimic the sense that I get from a lot of Calvinist who think it's wrong and horrible to challenge a position about God when they quote Rom 9:19,20. I believe in the Spirit in how he meant this verse to be used but not how Calvinists think about it.
Now about God giving us all free will. People of your position generally take what people who believe in free will to an extreme in a way a non-Calvinist doesn't believe. Non-Calvinists mostly I think have a common sense approach to what free will means, and that is free will with certain perimeters . Meaning man has free will to choose God or not he's at liberty to do so BUT free will won't go so far as to say one who rejects grace can back off from receiving judgement. God's will and what he says will prevail about that.
They guy in the video was saying God doesn't give free will at all. Don't buy it and his argument IMO is weak in trying to assert what he says.
Well at least it seems like you might believe in free will in a certain sense. I at least commend you for that. I defined it albeit briefly in my latest post.Define "free will"
Here are just a few of the verses where you have the free will to choose:The Bible defines "free will"? Well let's see it.
LOL, not one of those verses mentions free will let alone defines it. Good jobHere are just a few of the verses where you have the free will to choose:
Deu 30:19 I call Heaven and earth to record today against you. I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore, choose life, so that both you and your seed may live,
Jos 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve Jehovah, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served Beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you live. But as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.
Psa 25:12 What man is he who fears Jehovah? He shall teach him in the way that he shall choose.
Pro 1:29 instead they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of Jehovah.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey he shall eat until he knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 56:4 For so says Jehovah to the eunuchs who keep My Sabbath, and choose things that please Me, and take hold of My covenant;
Not to mention all the other verses where people have the free will to refuse what God wants them to do.....
I do. I am a compatibilist. We believe the will is free in a sense.Well at least it seems like you might believe in free will in a certain sense. I at least commend you for that. I defined it albeit briefly in my latest post.
Much more than your purpose was determined before the foundation of the world.
God chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Are you saying that you're in Christ before the foundation of the world…
but not saved untilmuchlater…
then what does that make you in the interval: an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly.
Sounds like the not-yet-repented regenerated anomaly Calvinists promote.
That is before the foundation of the world?
That has you as an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly for a period of time?
Those verses proved our free will to choose God. What were you looking for: free will to eat rocky road ice cream? ?LOL, not one of those verses mentions free will let alone defines it. Good job
does Humanity know what it was like before the Fall?So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.
100 percent the Lord's doing?We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son.
Does God bother to say anything to Us in this regard?The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son retuned home, the Father did not call him home.
You're saying that God is ok with unsaved people being "in Christ"? If that's the case then what type of a Holy God are we talking about here? You're attempting to impose Calvinist theories on the Bible and God, even to the point of denigrating God's Holiness, and it's not working.Correct for All Things were determined by God before the foundation of the world”… including how you would become in Christ within the timeline of His creation.
Yes this is referring to what God Planned, Purposed, and Determined for us, “before the foundation of the world”… therefore in Gods mind you were already “in Christ”. The outplay of his mind unfolded in the timeline of creation.
Again, your view is that in God is ok with "in Christ" people being unsaved.In God’s mind yes… creation is the outplay.
In the timeline of creation (after the foundation of the world) yes…
Spiritually, it is possible with God because God is above space & time. When we believe and are regenerated is when we are placed "in Christ" which makes Eph 1:4 true for us. Only if we are "in Christ" are we the elect. Election is conditional as per 2 Pet 1:10. Outside of "in Christ" we're on our own.No. If you plan, purpose, and determine that your children be in a house, before the foundation of the house, does that mean that they are “in the house” before it’s foundation? Of course not because there is a difference between what you planned before the foundation and the outplay that occurs after the foundation.
Again, God did more than "planned, purposed, and determined". He chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world.It means you planned, purposed, and determined them to be in that house, after the house is created, within the timeline of that house’s existence.
Nope. Spiritually, Eph 1:4 is possible for us with God because God is above space & time. When we believe and are regenerated is when we are placed "in Christ" which allows makes Eph 1:4 true for us.That’s because you are trying to mix in your false preconceived ideas. You adopted the false idea that “election” can only happen within the timeline of creation and not “before”.
Eph 1:4 takes us to beyond the timeline of creation, into the heavenlies "in Christ" (Eph 2:6) where there's no chronological time.In Gods mind, before the foundation of the world, God had already planned, purposed, and determined your “repentance” as a part of how you would be “in Christ” within the timeline of creation.
Any which way you cut it an unsaved "in Christ" person is still an anomaly.Exactly… “before” anything created existed… when created things only existed in the mind of God.
It’s not an anomaly when you allow the distinction of what existed in Gods mind “before” and what unfolds “after” the foundation. The entire plan of God existed in the mind of God “before the foundation of the world began”.
Nope. Not at all. When we believe and are regenerated is when we are placed "in Christ" which allows makes Eph 1:4 true for us. Calvinists have a major problem with their untenable promotion of not-yet-repented regenerated people and now unsaved "in Christ" people. What further anomalies will we discover in Calvinism?It does not make sense to you because you need “God chose us” to only be possible after the foundation of the world in order for your system to work.
I've already given you a very clear answer to that.Do you believe that you were in Him before the foundation of the world?
It fits nicely. No negative affect.If so, how does that fit in with your Calvinist PofS theory?
Eph 1:4 "according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"
It does not make sense to you because you need “God chose us” to only be possible after the foundation of the world in order for your system to work.
Nope. Not at all. ? When we believe and are regenerated is when ?we are placed "in Christ" which allows makes Eph 1:4 true for us. Calvinists have a major problem with their untenable promotion of not-yet-repented regenerated people and now unsaved "in Christ" people. What further anomalies will we discover in Calvinism?
Let's take it step by step:I've already given you a very clear answer to that.
It fits nicely. No negative affect.
I'm not interested in games with you.Let's take it step by step:
1) You were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, and then
2) you were not "in Christ" and
3) now you're "in Christ".
Question #1: What caused you to transition from "in Christ" (Step 1) to not "in Christ" (Step 2)?
Question #2: How does all that transtioning fit in with the Calvinist theory that as an elect you're always saved "in Christ"?
Temporally, we are chosen "in Christ" when we believe and are regenerated.Eph 1:4 states “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love” (Eph 1:4)
Yet you claim, the opposite of Eph 1:4, that we can only be “chosen in him” after “the foundation of the world”… “When we believe and are regenerated is when”.
What does the “before the foundation” mean in your understanding?
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That's not what Eph 1 says.Temporally, we are chosen "in Christ" when we believe and are regenerated.
Let's take it step by step:
1) You were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, and then
2) you were not "in Christ" and
3) now you're "in Christ".
Question #1: What caused you to transition from "in Christ" (Step 1) to not "in Christ" (Step 2)?
Question #2: How does all thattranstioningfit in with the Calvinist theory that as an elect you're always saved "in Christ"?
You possess the free will to consider critical thinking a "game" for you.I'm not interested in games with you.
Your understanding of Eph 1 isbyour understanding if it, not mine. Yours is a novelty, mine has a history.
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