I reject the Rcc, its pope, its marian dogmas, its claim to be the one, true church..

Stella1000 said:
I do trust and believe by faith and by the grace of God. The Church's explanation of 'presumption' really illuminates the difference between hope and the type of certainty that bears fruit of obnoxious superiority and condemnation of others that a human being has no right under his own steam, to pronounce.
Proclaiming Jesus Christ, risen, His life, suffering and sacrifice upon the cross, His resurrection and ascension to heaven where He sits at the right hand of His Father, believing in Him and receiving God's grace, His unmerited favor, repenting of sin and being born again, then redeemed, righteous in God's sight because of Jesus' righteousness which is imputed to each child of God, that is not an "obnoxious superiority and condemnation of others" but speaking in love the greatest love story of all time and the penalty for rejecting it (John 3:17b). This gift of God is for all men. It is not limited to one denomination such as the Rcc, or any of the protestant denoms, or evangelicals. It is as God tells us;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Yet even though we believe, the whole premise of the thread is that by your own pen you reject everything about the Church the Pope and the doctrines that serve the truth of Christ.

Romans 12 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

I know the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and read of the acts of the flesh, but am struggling to find hope that bears fruit of humility, gratitude, kindess, measure, discretion and wisdon. Would you please direct me to the Scripture that states this as I am interested to see it.

Acts of the flesh and walking in the Spirit produces different types of "fruit" if you will. Acts of the flesh produces bad fruit:

Galations 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

but the fruit of the Spirit is good fruit:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
I'd refer you to 1 Corinthians 13 where Paul succinctly encapsulates the fruits of the enduring virtues, faith, hope and love.
 
Here we go. The man who has an answer for EVERYTHING.

So let me get this straight: becasue of the above quote--we get to judge the human heart? This is what you are suggesting? That the pope is saying that God has given the power of judgement of the human heart to man? We get to tell people who is and who is not going to Hell?

Well? I am sure you have an answer so let's hear it. I can't wait I am sure...

By the way--do you happen to have a cure for cancer amid all those answers.....?
Blather. Why do you dislike Bergoglio? You spew the same Hallmark greeting card theology that he does.

Magisterium is meaningless to you, old, stodgy, obscure, traditionalist pre-Vatican II stuff written by some people.

The Catholic Church is not necessary. You can be saved in any religion. You're driving a Mercedes to heaven but Protestants are driving a Chevy. They both arrive at the same destination. You are wearing a Rolex but they are wearing a Timex. They both tell time.

I like strawberry ice cream, but you like chocolate.
 
The Catholic Church is necessary in the sense that without it---there is no salvation. Jesus founded the Church to dispense to the world the Graces of salvation that He won. So the Church IS necessary. Thus, any graces of salvation that exist and are dispensed to the world----only exist and are dispended because the Catholic Church exists.

But I do not go further than maintaining the necessity of the Church for salvation. When it comes to individual people and their hearts-- I LEAVE JUDGEMENT TO GOD. Only a rad trad would find that offensive...

I guess rad trads like judging human hearts and telling people who will and will not go to heaven. The thing there is---they do not seem to realize that--the more harshly they judge others, the more harshly God will judge them. That is why I do not go further than maintaining the necessity of the Church for salvation. All who are saved are saved becasue of the merits of Christ----which are found in their fullness and perfection in Catholicism.

Does this mean only Catholics can go to heaven? That is for God to decide; not man, not me.
Can you post any magisterium to backup your blather?
 
Can you post any magisterium to backup your blather?
It's always been Church teaching. Aquinas early in the 12th century most articulately defends it against the deniers....

Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification. (Summa Theologica 3:68 art 2)

As stated above (Article 11), the shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated (III:11. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desi.e. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act. In like manner, too, the power of the Holy Ghost acts in the Baptism of Water through a certain hidden power. in the Baptism of Repentance by moving the heart (Summa Theologica 3:66 art 11 & 12)
 
It's always been Church teaching. Aquinas early in the 12th century most articulately defends it against the deniers....

Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification. (Summa Theologica 3:68 art 2)

As stated above (Article 11), the shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated (III:11. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desi.e. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act. In like manner, too, the power of the Holy Ghost acts in the Baptism of Water through a certain hidden power. in the Baptism of Repentance by moving the heart (Summa Theologica 3:66 art 11 & 12)
Right. That is just stating the Catholic dogma of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire and doesn't have anything to do with Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Invincible ignorance is not a get out of jail free card.

That's a far cry from saying that non-Catholic sects are a means of salvation, which is heresy.

Since you are quoting the Summa, St. Thomas Aquinas also says that "invincible ignorance is a punishment for sin.” (De Infid. q. x., art. 1.) It is, then, a curse, not a blessing or a means of salvation.
 
It's always been Church teaching. Aquinas early in the 12th century most articulately defends it against the deniers....

Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification. (Summa Theologica 3:68 art 2)

As stated above (Article 11), the shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated (III:11. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desi.e. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act. In like manner, too, the power of the Holy Ghost acts in the Baptism of Water through a certain hidden power. in the Baptism of Repentance by moving the heart (Summa Theologica 3:66 art 11 & 12)
then you believe in and follow Augustine.
 
Context is very important. So when your church says taking the eucharist is required for salvation, what then? What of those of us who deny that the wafer and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ. What, when prayers in your church state the Rc Mary is the only gate to heaven and must be entered only through her? What of:

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)
“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

In the current age of ecumenism and interreligious dialogue, the Church’s infallible dogma nulla salus has been all but ignored. We now often hear that the Catholic Church has only the “fullness” of truth as opposed to being the one and only ark of salvation. We even hear Catholics claim that the Protestant sects are eminently serviceable religions in their own right, instead of calling them what they really are: man-made institutions that are rife with heresy and immorality and which were created in opposition to the one true Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, the kingdom of God.

Pius IX condemned the notion that those outside the Catholic Church have a good hope of eternal life. Entertaining such an idea undermines the Church’s infallible teaching that outside of her there is no salvation. Such a false view results in a wellspring of indifferentism which has already infected the Church and the world today. Pius XI clarified that those who are invincibly ignorant of the Church may still be saved, but this is a narrow exception to the divine rule. How many are truly ignorant of the claims of Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church? Only God knows, and God alone is the Judge. Pius IX has told us that it is unlawful to proceed to further inquiry about the salvation of those outside the Church. Instead, we continue to labor in the harvest by planting the seed, and leave the growing to God.

But context, right? Well, that's alot of context to ignore. You seem out of step with the church you claim is the one, true church.
Yeah but you are forgetting the STANDARD rcc explanation: that does not say what it means and does not mean what it says!
 
Yet even though we believe, the whole premise of the thread is that by your own pen you reject everything about the Church the Pope and the doctrines that serve the truth of Christ.

Romans 12 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


I'd refer you to 1 Corinthians 13 where Paul succinctly encapsulates the fruits of the enduring virtues, faith, hope and love.
I'd refer you to 1 Corinthians 13 where Paul succinctly encapsulates the fruits of the enduring virtues, faith, hope and love.
are you claiming to believe those verses? if so, why?
 
It's always been Church teaching. Aquinas early in the 12th century most articulately defends it against the deniers....

Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification. (Summa Theologica 3:68 art 2)

As stated above (Article 11), the shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated (III:11. These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desi.e. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act. In like manner, too, the power of the Holy Ghost acts in the Baptism of Water through a certain hidden power. in the Baptism of Repentance by moving the heart (Summa Theologica 3:66 art 11 & 12)
Don't waste your time with Mysterium. No matter what you say---he has an answer for it.
 
Given that you are the master of obscurity and the man with all the answers I would think you could refute me easily.
I find this remark quite ironic because I'm sure you, yourself, know that the opposite is true.

You are the one with the analogies; "Catholics are wearing a Rolex, but Protestants are wearing a Timex", and the Hallmark Greeting Card theology; "The Church is a hospital, not a museum of saints. Communion is not a prize for behaving, it is food for the journey." You are parroting Bergoglio word for word.

I am citing examples of magisterium to back up what I post, which you completely ignore, because it is meaningless to you. It's just some old, obsolete, stodgy, things, written by some irrelevant obscure popes that have absolutely no meaning or relevance today in your new religion created at Vatican II.
 
Yet even though we believe, the whole premise of the thread is that by your own pen you reject everything about the Church the Pope and the doctrines that serve the truth of Christ.
At one time, perhaps the 1st century, maybe even into the late 3rd or early 4th the church in Rome did serve Christ it would seem. But since that time this apostate belief system has devolved into exactly what Jesus warned us to watch out for. False teachers, wolves in sheeps clothing and as Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 to the pharisees in Mark 7:6&7

These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

Your church is a pharisiacal creation, not unlike the pharisees who created over 600 rules to be followed outside of the written Law, founded on the precepts of men, the doctrines of heretics and the idolatry of mariolaters.
Romans 12 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
That is a great verse and I love what it teaches us. I can only quote what I replied to you in my last comment:

"Proclaiming Jesus Christ, risen, His life, suffering and sacrifice upon the cross, His resurrection and ascension to heaven where He sits at the right hand of His Father, believing in Him and receiving God's grace, His unmerited favor, repenting of sin and being born again, then redeemed, righteous in God's sight because of Jesus' righteousness which is imputed to each child of God, that is not an "obnoxious superiority and condemnation of others" but speaking in love the greatest love story of all time and the penalty for rejecting it (John 3:17b). This gift of God is for all men. It is not limited to one denomination such as the Rcc, or any of the protestant denoms, or evangelicals. It is as God tells us;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
I'd refer you to 1 Corinthians 13 where Paul succinctly encapsulates the fruits of the enduring virtues, faith, hope and love.
You reference has nothing to do with your claim that "hope that bears fruit of humility, gratitude, kindess, measure, discretion and wisdon". Hope is not an action that produces fruit but is an expression of our faith:

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

OT:
תִּקְוָה
tiqvâ

  1. hope, expectation
    1. hope
    2. ground of hope
    3. things hoped for, outcome

NT:
ἐλπίς
elpis

  1. expectation of good, hope
    1. in the Christian sense
      1. joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
  2. on hope, in hope, having hope
    1. the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
    2. the thing hoped for





 
I find this remark quite ironic because I'm sure you, yourself, know that the opposite is true.

You are the one with the analogies; "Catholics are wearing a Rolex, but Protestants are wearing a Timex", and the Hallmark Greeting Card theology; "The Church is a hospital, not a museum of saints. Communion is not a prize for behaving, it is food for the journey." You are parroting Bergoglio word for word.

I am citing examples of magisterium to back up what I post, which you completely ignore, because it is meaningless to you. It's just some old, obsolete, stodgy, things, written by some irrelevant obscure popes that have absolutely no meaning or relevance today in your new religion created at Vatican II.
All analogies limp, sir.

And get right my analogy. I did not compare Catholicism (Rolex) to Protestantism (Timex.)

I compared Catholicism (Rolex) to Protestantism (FAKE ROLEX.) Some fakes are better than others, some tell time better than others--but in the end--the fakes only amount to anything because of the original. The real deal--Catholicism is objectively superior than the fakes--Protestantism. The real deal is authenticated and guaranteed to tell you the correct time always. The fakes--not so much.

The point is that the fake Rolex---only has any value at all---if it can be said to have value--because of the real thing.

There is no salvation WITHOUT the Catholic Church. That means---Protestantism is only what it is becasue we are who we are. If we go--they go. They cannot stand independently.
 
I like your analogy. So your Rolex represents your church, the rcc. And the one you call the fake Rolex is my church. So let us take a good look at the internal mechanism of each. Your rcc, the one you call real. It is based on many dogmas, canons, and doctrines, sacrements, and a leader that is found nowhere else. It is unique, no other like it. It is based on traditions, oral and sacred, which are found nowhere but In your rcc. Traditions that your rcc made up. Traditions that can be found nowhere in sctripture. No one can find them anywhere but in rcc writings. So all these mechanisms are fabricated by the rcc. The parts of your Rolex were made by men who are not watchmakers,(church builders), but your watch is touted as being the real deal. But a real watch works with watch parts, and John Deere tractor parts, or Ford truck parts can't be added to a watch in order to make it work. So your Rolex can't be real because of the need of non- watch parts added to it
Now let us look at my church and it's internal mechanism. It's internal mechanism is the Bible, which is God's Holy Word to mankind, and the teaching of the apostles, who taught scripture, which is TRUTH, and the gospel of Jesus Christ. No other parts are needed. What makes our watch work is the TRUTH of God's word, because it cannot function with it, God's word is truth. The church is not about telling time, it is about worshiping God , and worshipping Him through Jesus Christ. It is not about praying to Mary or any other dead person. It is about proclaiming the gospel in TRUTH. So enjoy the fantasy of your mismatched "Rolex", while we cling to the cross Of Christ. We are very satisfied with our lowly Timex but at least it is a real Timex, not a fantasy!
 
There is no salvation WITHOUT the Catholic Church.
So answer me this romish...who died on the cross? Who shed His blood for the forgiveness of sin? Who was buried and resurrected on the 3rd day after laying in a borrowed tomb? Who was witnessed by many witnesses after His resurrection, including Thomas who doubted the testimony of the other disciples? Who ascended to Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father? Who's Grace are we saved by? Whose do we put our faith in? Who promised and sent the Holy Spirit to His children? If you answer any of these the Rcc then you are an apostate. If you answer all of the Jesus then your claim "There is no salvation WITHOUT the (Roman) Catholic Church." is also heretical.
That means---Protestantism is only what it is becasue we are who we are. If we go--they go. They cannot stand independently.
Partially true. God freed His church from the apostate institution the Rcc and as He promised, even the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Irrespective of all the Rcc's efforts. But the conclusion? That is such arrogance but typical of Rc's. We stand on God's Word and are His body. We stand on His promises. His unmerited favor. So your institution can disappear but God's church will not. His body will always be here until His return to take us.
 
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