This 1 parable refutes all 5 points of calvinism- tulip

[Yahweh will increase]

Are you aware that on the day of pentecost, all those in the crowd were Hebrew and did not need to hear a message in the langage of the people from where they had been dispersed. Peter went on to preach in a common language which they all understood. The primary use of tongues in the church going forth from the day of pentecost was to deliver a message to the church, thru an interpreter and to edify the speaker

Of course but that was the sign, for they knew those languages being they were residents of those countries and therefore the sign was that God wants to unit all men in the knowledge of the truth and not just the Jews alone like in the OT and that one way that he would do this is through this gift of tongues.

I disagree with your assessment on this, for if everyone in the church already spoke the same exact language, then why would they need to hear a message in another tongue through an interpreter? Makes sense of that why don't you?


No, but what Paul says about tongues used in the church, is that while the gift shouldn't be forbidden altogether as a true gift of the Holy Spirit, if someone had a tongue for someone that might be there that didn't speak their language, that there should be an interpreter for all those who didn't speak his language and which would have been the majority.

In other words the tongue would be for the one visiting from another country and the interpreter would be for all of the rest who spoke their common language so all in that church, the visitor from the other country and the local residents of that church could be edified by the message.

God gave this sign of tongues to those Jews as a sign that he was wanting the other nations to hear the message of the gospel and be saved and not just the Jews alone like it was before Jesus came and died for the sins of all men, that is what it was about.

Therefore "whosoever both Jew and Gentiles" shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and which is the context of Joel 2 that Peter used to explain what it was all about.


Tongues was not suppose to be for self edification or selfish use and this is where many people get confused by what Paul says about it, for they mistakenly think that Paul is endorsing this when actually he isn't at all. .

You see there can always be someone who comes to a church from another country and who speaks another language and therefore Paul didn't want to forbid the use of tongues altogether but rather to make sure there is someone who has the gift of interpretation also, so that the whole church could be edified also and not just the person from the foreign country of the tongue given.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

I don't see that.

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?"

They might have been Jews, but it sounds like they spoke all kinds of different languages. It's possible that a lot of them didn't know Hebrew. That's why they translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek and then Arabic and then Latin etc.

Then how did Peter speak to them?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Of course but that was the sign, for they knew those languages being they were residents of those countries and therefore the sign was that God wants to unit all men in the knowledge of the truth and not just the Jews alone like in the OT and that one way that he would do this is through this gift of tongues.

I disagree with your assessment on this, for if everyone in the church already spoke the same exact language, then why would they need to hear a message in another tongue through an interpreter? Makes sense of that why don't you?


No, but what Paul says about tongues used in the church, is that while the gift shouldn't be forbidden altogether as a true gift of the Holy Spirit, if someone had a tongue for someone that might be there that didn't speak their language, that there should be an interpreter for all those who didn't speak his language and which would have been the majority.

In other words the tongue would be for the one visiting from another country and the interpreter would be for all of the rest who spoke their common language so all in that church, the visitor from the other country and the local residents of that church could be edified by the message.

God gave this sign of tongues to those Jews as a sign that he was wanting the other nations to hear the message of the gospel and be saved and not just the Jews alone like it was before Jesus came and died for the sins of all men, that is what it was about.

Therefore "whosoever both Jew and Gentiles" shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and which is the context of Joel 2 that Peter used to explain what it was all about.


Tongues was not suppose to be for self edification or selfish use and this is where many people get confused by what Paul says about it, for they mistakenly think that Paul is endorsing this when actually he isn't at all. .

You see there can always be someone who comes to a church from another country and who speaks another language and therefore Paul didn't want to forbid the use of tongues altogether but rather to make sure there is someone who has the gift of interpretation also, so that the whole church could be edified also and not just the person from the foreign country of the tongue given.

I will get when I can, but as far as the need for an interpreter, Paul teaches that when a person speaks in tongues, only God understands. No human will know what is being said. except for a person with the gift of interpretation of tongues. I am running out now, but if you need the scriptural references for these thoughts, they are strikingly onvious, Be back in a couple hours

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I will get when I can, but as far as the need for an interpreter, Paul teaches that when a person speaks in tongues, only God understands. No human will know what is being said. except for a person with the gift of interpretation of tongues. I am running out now, but if you need the scriptural references for these thoughts, they are strikingly onvious, Be back in a couple hours

I am well aware of all that Paul said about it, but this is a situation of a tongue being given and there is no foreigner in the church that speaks this tongue, then only God and the interpreter would know what is being said and that is another reason why the interpreter is needed also.

The idea here is not to forbid or prevent someone from giving a tongue if they feel led but to make sure that there is an interpreter so that everyone in the church understands what the message of the tongue was.

 

[guest1]

If you guys want to talk about tongues start a thread and stop hijacking this one . The topic is the 5 points of Calvinist not tongues

hope this helps !!!

 

[Yahweh will increase]

If you guys want to talk about tongues start a thread and stop hijacking this one . The topic is the 5 points of Calvinist not tongues

hope this helps !!!

Let's talk about the error in your post then shall we?

Your mistake is that you are taking what Jesus said way to literal in every little detail and it is quite possible for one to receive the word into shallow ground because the ground hasn't been fully broken yet in true complete repentance and this heart is not a genuinely saved heart.

If you really paid attention to what Jesus is saying in this parable, you should have seen this and that is why in the OT it is stated "break up the fallow ground", because only those who received the word deep into the ground of their heart in complete and true repentance and which Jesus calls "the good ground" are truly saved.

We see this also in Hebrews 6 when the writer says, "for the ground which drinks in the the rain that often falls upon it received blessing from God but that which bears thorns and briars is rejected and is near unto cursing and whose end is to be burned".


It all has to do with how deep the living seed of God's word is able to penetrate the heart and only a heart that has been fully broken of sin can be saved from sin through the gospel message, because in all of the other examples, the word couldn't penetrate the depths of the heart to bear a continuing fruit.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

hope this helps !!!

By the way, didn't you notice, that only one example bore fruit some 30, 60 and 100 fold? The other examples that Jesus gave were only temporarily excited by the word but because there was no true repentance to actually produce fruit that accompanies salvation, they either continue in self produced religious activity as though under the law or they will give up completely..

 

[Bocco]

Then how did Peter speak to them?

He wasn't speaking to every person there.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

He was speaking to men of Judea and those in Jerusalem. Remember, there were others there. Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome

 

[guest1]

Even Calvin contradicts his own doctrine of LA.

But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

Calvin said :

Calvin preached that those for whom Christ died could be lost:

"It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ." (Sermon 6, 2 Tim 2:19, pg. 83, A Selection of the Most Celebrated Sermons of John Calvin, John Calvin)

Hope this helps !!’

 

[Alexander the adequate]

He wasn't speaking to every person there.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

He was speaking to men of Judea and those in Jerusalem. Remember, there were others there. Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome

Did you notice verse 2:5? There were Jews, living in Jerusalem who were from all those nations mentioned, which means they all knew the languages of where they came friom. No others are mentioned. No Gentiles, no non-jews. Peter spoke to them in their common language, Hebrew or Aramaic. though the tongues were heard in the languages of the contries they had come from

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Did you notice verse 2:5? There were Jews, living in Jerusalem who were from all those nations mentioned, which means they all knew the languages of where they came friom. No others are mentioned. No Gentiles, no non-jews. Peter spoke to them in their common language, Hebrew or Aramaic, though the tongues were heard in the languages of the countries they had come from

 

[Theo1689]

Even Calvin contradicts his own doctrine of LA.

But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

Calvin didn't write that.
Peter did.

Calvin said :

Calvin preached that those for whom Christ died could be lost:

Calvin didn't write that.
He didn't refer to himself in the third person.

"It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ." (Sermon 6, 2 Tim 2:19, pg. 83, A Selection of the Most Celebrated Sermons of John Calvin, John Calvin)

Hope this helps !!’

Do you have a link to this sermon?
I'm guessing you've never read it.
And without the surrounding context, your "quote" is worthless.

Since Chalcedon (selectively) ignores my posts, I'm hoping someone who he likes challenges him to link to this alleged "sermon", so that we can read the CONTEXT.

And why is he so obsessed with "Calvin" anyway?

 

[Theo1689]

crickets chirping ??????

Why does anyone care what Calvin allegedly "wrote"?

 

[guest1]

why would anyone believe what calvin taught ?

 

[Theo1689]

why would anyone believe what calvin taught ?

You apparently do, since you are obsessed with quoting him (evidently from secondary sources).

Where is that link to "sermon 6" that you cited?

 

[Bocco]

Since Chalcedon (selectively) ignores my posts, I'm hoping someone who he likes challenges him to link to this alleged "sermon", so that we can read the CONTEXT.

I found a link. It is at Monergism.com and you can download it as a ePub. .mobi & .pdf. I downloaded it as a PDF and have a slow 16mbs connection and it still only took about 2 seconds. It is 152 pages. Here is the link

A Selection of the Most Celebrated Sermons of John Calvin (eBook) | Monergism

by John Calvinin ePub. .mobi & .pdfEdited by Thomas and Colleen WitteIn offering this selection of Sermons to the public, the publishers have not been governed

www.monergism.com

Anyhow I searched for it. It is in
SERMON VI.
2 TIMOTHY, Chap. ii. verse 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Here are the first 3 paragraphs. The last paragraph lets the secret slip.

We noticed this morning what was said by St. Paul concerning those that had fallen away; in order to stir up the minds of the faithful, to the end they should not be troubled thereat. If we see those fall who seemed to uphold the church, as it were, we must not be shaken; for if men be frail, if they go astray out of the right way, if they be froward, it is no new thing, for such is their nature; therefore we ought not to marvel at it, if they fall into wickedness rather than godliness. But in the meantime, our salvation is settled upon the grace of our God; yea, insomuch that it pleased him to choose us before the world began, and to make us of the number of his chosen children.

But we are grieved to see those who have shown some good tokens that they were the children of God, turn back; for we ought to possess a zeal to have the church of God enlarged and increased, rather than diminished. We ought also to have a care of our brethren, and to be sorry to see them perish; for it is no small matter to have the souls perish, who were bought by the blood of Christ. Yet notwithstanding, we must always comfort ourselves with this doctrine, that God will maintain his church, although the number be but small; though it be not so great as we could wish it, yet we must content ourselves, and believe he will safely keep all those he hath chosen.

Those that fall away, and those backsliders that renounce Jesus Christ, although they were joined to us, we must conclude that they were not of this number; seeing they have departed from us. For it is easier for the world to be turned about a thousand times, than that one of God's chosen children, whom he holdeth fast to himself, should perish: it cannot be! For God is the protector of our salvation, as he himself hath declared: yea, and this office is given to our Lord Jesus Christ, to maintain and keep all that God the Father hath chosen. This is what St. Paul meaneth by these words, The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his.

 

[Sketo]

Yet notwithstanding, we must always comfort ourselves with this doctrine, that God will maintain his church, although the number be but small; though it be not so great as we could wish it, yet we must content ourselves, and believe he will safely keep all those he hath chosen.

Those that fall away, and those backsliders that renounce Jesus Christ, although they were joined to us, we must conclude that they were not of this number; seeing they have departed from us. For it is easier for the world to be turned about a thousand times, than that one of God's chosen children, whom he holdeth fast to himself, should perish: it cannot be! For God is the protector of our salvation, as he himself hath declared: yea, and this office is given to our Lord Jesus Christ, to maintain and keep all that God the Father hath chosen. This is what St. Paul meaneth by these words, The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his.

The context is interesting… Tares among the Wheat… False converts…

…

 

[Theo1689]

But we are grieved to see those who have shown some good tokens that they were the children of God, turn back; for we ought to possess a zeal to have the church of God enlarged and increased, rather than diminished. We ought also to have a care of our brethren, and to be sorry to see them perish; for it is no small matter to have the souls perish, who were bought by the blood of Christ. Yet notwithstanding, we must always comfort ourselves with this doctrine, that God will maintain his church, although the number be but small; though it be not so great as we could wish it, yet we must content ourselves, and believe he will safely keep all those he hath chosen.

Those that fall away, and those backsliders that renounce Jesus Christ, although they were joined to us, we must conclude that they were not of this number; seeing they have departed from us. For it is easier for the world to be turned about a thousand times, than that one of God's chosen children, whom he holdeth fast to himself, should perish: it cannot be! For God is the protector of our salvation, as he himself hath declared: yea, and this office is given to our Lord Jesus Christ, to maintain and keep all that God the Father hath chosen. This is what St. Paul meaneth by these words, The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his.

Thanks for looking this up.

This is an example of quote-mining, with no regard to context. These quotes are found in "anti-" books and websites, and people like Chalcedon will simply copy-and-paste to try to poison the well, neither knowing the context or even caring.

 

[guest1]

All the Calvinists throughout history must have missed that ... ?

Yes they have missed the following truths and have twisted the parable of the soils . Tulip ? is refuted in the parable in each point.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

hope this helps !!!

 

[Yahweh will increase]

* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

hope this helps !!!

Where does it say that "they all had life to begin with in each soil" in that parable Civic?

You made that up.

The parable is not showing that just because the word itself was alive, that this means that each soil received that life.

For being there was no fruit, then it means they didn't receive the life from the word and the reason why, was because there was no true repentance to break up the cluttered ground of their hearts to remove the rocks and thorns that hindered the word from giving life to their soils so that they could bear fruit.


There is a big, big difference from the word being alive and their soils receiving life from the word.