Tithes and offerings

Show me FROM THE BIBLE a command from Jesus Christ and,/or the apostles to tithe to the church, in the NT church, in the new and better covenant of grace in the blood of Jesus Christ--the covenant the church is in NOW.
See the old testament. Malachi. A standing ordinance in the church to bring in the tithing that there may be meat in my house. Malachi 3:10. Now, show me where anyone rescinded that ordinance.

The simple fact remains, as long as there are churches, tithing is necessary to sustain them and it will remain so until churches are no longer necessary.
 
It is, in the LDS church. One must tithe to be "worthy" to get into their temples, in order to perform the ordinances that enable them, supposedly, to be exalted to godhood after death. Mormons essentially pay for their exaltation.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Ronans 6:23)
I would like to see the LDS definition of ordinance. Obedience wasn't an ordinance when I was a Mormon. And if I was considered unworthy why was I allowed to attend a temple dedication?

Some believe that the "Pay Lay Ale" sentence is derived from the Hebrew phrase "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God". "Pay Lay Ale" was identified in the temple ceremony as words from the "pure Adamic language".
 
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The old tithing system was part of the Law of Moses, to support the priesthood and the temple.
It was required for far more than that. Now show me, specifically where the law of tithing was rescinded by anyone. We have specifics on other laws such as circumcision and the shedding of blood or the high priest or the diet requirements, but I can't find anything that rescinds tithing, which, btw, was established before the law of Moses.
Jesus completely fulfilled the Lo,M.
He did. Tithing predates the Lo,M.
NO more temple..
Temples predate the law of Moses as well.
NO more Aaronic/Levitical priesthood.
According to you, but not according to the scriptures. Like churches as long as there are temporal needs for members of the church, there will be a need for ministers of those temporal needs, one of which is not unlike the ordinances the priests in those temples performed. The sacrament that Jesus instituted at the last supper is the replacement for the blood sacrifice. Since the gospel was also opened to the gentiles as indicated by the great commission, to all the Earth, then a change was also required in who could administer those temporal needs opening the priesthood to the gentiles as well.

Yes, there changes, but change does not necessarily mean abolish. Jesus did not destroy the law, he fulfilled it. All of the meaning in the law remained. Circumcision is still necessary but not in the flesh. Remembering the last and great sacrifice is still necessary just as looking forward to it was. It's just performed differently but it is still performed. Likewise, the priesthood is still here, it's just opened to the gentiles as well and it has the same function in administering the same sacrament that has also changed.
Nada. Zilch.
Which pretty much describes what you all have to offer.
That was the OLD Covenant. We are in the NEW covenant, which is NOT like the OC
Oh. I disagree. It is very much like the old covenant.
Now, still waiting to be shown
the command from God to tithe to the church, in the NC
I'm still waiting. Where in the NC does it rescind the law of tithing?
 
The old tithing system was part of the Law of Moses,

Tithing was part of the gospel centuries before the Law of Moses was instituted:

Genesis 14:20---King James Version
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

to support the priesthood and the temple.

And other things--as there was at least three different tithes--which I have already posted the material describing those tithes.

Jesus completely fulfilled the Lo,M. NO more temple...

You might want to relate that to the Biblical writers:

Acts 5:40-42---King James Version
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

NO more Aaronic/Levitical priesthood. Nada. Zilch.

More arguments with the Biblical writers:

Exodus 40:15--King James Version

15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.
 
But His covenant did! We are in the NEW and BETTER covenant of grace in the blood of Jesus Christ, the ultimate Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world.

Read Hebrews.

Read 1 John:

1 John 1:7--King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That defies faith alone theology.
 
I have already told you what church body I belong to, and how much it gives to missions and charities. And how our church gives an accounting to its membership, at the end of every year. They can also write to my church and ask to see an accounting.

Now, can your members write to your church, and see a breakdown as to how the tithing money is used? Like in a pie chart? How much goes to administrative costs, how much to supporting your president, how much to temple upkeep and building, how much for missions, etc.

Can you?

Bonnie--please show us where the tithe payers in the OT were given a report of exactly where their tithes were spent? Or that tithes were optional.

The LDS get a year end report of exactly what their donations were. It is an officially recognized report by the government.

The LDS church acts as one--where the money goes into a general fund--- where churches which write checks to the poor and needy exceeds their donations--they still have the funds to do so.. If a church needs to be built, where the faith exists to do so--the LDS church builds it--at no cost to the membership. It's a world-wide church--as the Savior commanded.

There are governmental accountants which monitor the money--and if anything is amiss--it will be known. There is accountability as to every penny which is donated. There is no such thing as unmonitored money donations. There have been numerous accusations against the LDS church--as you are aware, they have been posted on this very board--which have come to nothing.

By the way--this is the recent update on some of those charges--I believe you might have been one of the ones who pursued this some time ago, on this board:


Mormon Church Defeats Suit Alleging Fraud Over Use of Donations​

Sept. 14, 2021, 6:40 PM
Listen

  • Lawsuit alleged church lied about use of tithings
  • Juror could conclude church used earnings from investments
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints will avoid allegations that it misled members about how their donations were being used after a federal court in California dismissed a suit filed by a church member.
California resident James Huntsman said he paid 10% of his annual income to the church from 1993 to 2017, believing the money would be used for noncommercial purposes. Huntsman sued the church for fraud in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, alleging tithings had been used to build a shopping center in Salt Lake City, despite church leaders’ assurances to the contrary.
 
It was required for far more than that.

No, it wasn't.
Now show me, specifically where the law of tithing was rescinded by anyone.

I already did. You never read Hebrews without Mormon glasses on, did you? it is all about how the new and better covenant of grace in Jesus' blood is so much BETTER than the OLD covenant in the blood of bulls and goats, with its priesthood that always perished and have to be replaced due to death.


11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of [g]physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
“You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”


18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19
(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 [h]The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

“The Lord has sworn
And will not change His mind,
‘You are a priest forever’”);

So, YOUR priesthoods are as phony as Monopoly money. They are totally unnecessary. There HAS been a change in priesthood, through Jesus Christ of the tribe of Judah, which never was part of the Levitical priesthood. And Jesus is our great High Priest, the only one we ever need because He is perfect and Holy and saves us and lives forever. None of your priests can ever claim these things.

So, no, there is NO LONGER a Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to support. Nor is there a need any more for any temples in which to perform sacred service to God and especially to perform animal sacrifices. Instead, each and every true Christian in the world is a temple to the indwelling HS, Who is God, and instead of offering up wave offerings of grain, or animal sacrifices, but instead, offer up sacrifices of prayers, praises, and thanksgivings, which are much pleasing to the Lord, as His word tells us.

Instead, people inside your "temples" offer up unclean, dead works to a false god, with foul renditions of the Creation and Fall into sin stories from Genesis, shown in a video to those participating in the endowment ceremony, in the name of a false savior, the actual brother of Satan (!) in the supposed pre-mortal existence.


13 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.


And more. This book says that the OLD covenant in the Law of Moses was the shadow of the things to come, i.e., Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the OLD covenant. The Law of Moses was the shadow, but Christ is the substance.

Also, IF all of these OT laws are still in effect, then why don't Mormons follow the kosher food laws? The clean/unclean laws? Are women in your families deemed "unclean" during their monthly cycles?
We have specifics on other laws such as circumcision and the shedding of blood or the high priest or the diet requirements, but I can't find anything that rescinds tithing, which, btw, was established before the law of Moses.

Read Hebrews--all of it--but first, take off your Mormon-tinted glasses and read it, as if reading it for the first time, as if it really had something to say to you.
He did. Tithing predates the Lo,M.

No, it doesn't. NOT as a Law. Abraham, of his own free will, gave a tithe of the spoils from the war he fought to free his nephew Lot to Melchizedek. That does not make it a law. It was a free-will offering. NO priesthood, tabernacle, or temple yet to support and, it is the only time Abraham was recorded as doing such a thing.
Temples predate the law of Moses as well.

Yes--by pagans. But Paul clearly says in Acts 17 that God does NOT live in temple made by human hands. Your temples are made by human hands, aren't they?
According to you, but not according to the scriptures. Like churches as long as there are temporal needs for members of the church, there will be a need for ministers of those temporal needs, one of which is not unlike the ordinances the priests in those temples performed.

I agree what churches should support their pastors; that is entirely biblical. BUT NOWHERE is the church commanded to tithe when it gives to the church; instead, Paul says to "give as the Lord has prospered you."

Jesus had some harsh things to say to the Pharisees for one of their man-made laws, remember? That made it impossible for a man to care for his parents? Remember:

Mark 7--
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

I remember reading one of your leader's speeches, in which he told church members always to tithe, no matter what, even if their children go hungry (paraphrasing). I don't remember this guy's name--I think "Lynn" is one of his names--but in a church as wealthy as yours, why would it want little children to go hungry, so it can rake in more money to fill its already bloated coffers? This sounds suspiciously like what Jesus was talking about, to the Pharisees and their man-made doctrines.
 
Part two:

The sacrament that Jesus instituted at the last supper is the replacement for the blood sacrifice. Since the gospel was also opened to the gentiles as indicated by the great commission, to all the Earth, then a change was also required in who could administer those temporal needs opening the priesthood to the gentiles as well.

There is no need for a formal priesthood in the NT church--none whatsoever. A few church bodies call their ministers "priests" but they are not like the OT priests in the Law of Moses. There WAS A change in priesthood, as Hebrews says--and that necessitated a change in law! NO more Aaronic priests! No longer necessary! Reread Hebrews!
Yes, there changes, but change does not necessarily mean abolish.

That is true, but in this case the OLD covenant was growing old and obsolete and ready to disappear. It did so with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, by the Romans. Maybe God was trying to tell the Jews something....
Jesus did not destroy the law, he fulfilled it.

And He fulfilled the necessity of having to have Levitical and Aaronic priests, since He fulfilled the entire sacrificial system of the temple that they ministered to by the once-for-all-time sacrifice of Himself on Calvery's cross. NO more need for temples, animal sacrifices, or Aaronic priesthoods, since Jesus is our one and only great High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek--perfect, holy, who saves us completely and lives forever to intercede for us--none of your phony Aaronic and Melchizedek priests can make these claims.
All of the meaning in the law remained. Circumcision is still necessary but not in the flesh. Remembering the last and great sacrifice is still necessary just as looking forward to it was. It's just performed differently but it is still performed. Likewise, the priesthood is still here, it's just opened to the gentiles as well and it has the same function in administering the same sacrament that has also changed.

The only priesthood that is still here is the priesthood of ALL believers, who now offer up the sacrifices of thanksgiving, prayers, and praises, much pleasing to the Lord. We don't need your phony priesthoods, boJ. No one does. But your church has bamboozled its members into thinking it does. Shameful.
Which pretty much describes what you all have to offer.

On the contrary, what we preach is the New and better covenant of grace in the blood of Jesus Christ, our one and only great High Priest Who lives forever to intercede for us with the Father and saves us completely--something your phony priests cannot do.! Each believer is a priest to God the Father, and it is JESUS HIMSELF Who has made us so:

Rev. 1: 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who [c]is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

JESUS made us priests! Therefore, since John is writing to these seven churches made up of men and women, Jews and Gentiles, that means this priesthood if for ALL believers!

There has been a change in priesthood, remember, with Jesus being our great and only High Priest, from the tribe of Judah? And therefore, that means there is a change of law!
I'm still waiting. Where in the NC does it rescind the law of tithing?
In Hebrews, where the entire Law of Moses--the shadow--has been made null and void and obsolete, by the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Substance--Jesus Christ. Remember what Heb. 8 says:

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The first covenant God made with Israel was the Law of Moses. Jesus fulfilled ALL of that covenant. It was already obsolete by the time the author of Hebrews wrote this epistle. And that would include all of it, not just the animal sacrifices.

I am still waiting for YOU to show me a command for those in the NT church to tithe, that they MUST tithe, especially to be "worthy" to get into temples that didn't even exist then in the NT church--except the actual bodies of believers....
 
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No, it wasn't.
'taint so...
I already did.
'taint so...
So, YOUR priesthoods are as phony as Monopoly money. They are totally unnecessary.
LOL. I already acknowledged changes in the priesthood. It did change. There was no need to the effigy of the great high priest since that HP fulfilled the law. I also pointed out that with the great commission, the priesthood was opened to gentiles as well as Jews.

Your argument from opinion doesn't negate the need for the priesthood nor does it prove that it was abolished. I quote myself, change does not necessarily mean abolish. Your opinion that it did is irrelevant. The fact remains that the church's foundation is built on the priesthood according to the scriptures.
 
Tithing is not an ordinance.
It's Gods law... we have discussed this before many times... so it seems Christians do not teach or preach that not only is it a law but ignore teaching about its blessings.. that "He will “open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Mal. 3:10).

It's actually a test to see if one has enough faith even in the worst of situations financially to believe in a promise, Gods promise of blessings and shall not be room enough... Evangelicals want to be rid of this, stating its a old testament principle... chuckle.
They claim faith alone saves yet not enough faith to live a promised law or principle... and why are they so afraid? Methinks they are afraid they will loose members... hmm
 
The old tithing system was part of the Law of Moses, to support the priesthood and the temple. Jesus completely fulfilled the Lo,M. NO more temple...NO more Aaronic/Levitical priesthood. Nada. Zilch. That was the OLD Covenant. We are in the NEW covenant, which is NOT like the OC,as both Jeremiah and Hebrews say.. Read Hebrews until it finally sinks in.

Now, still waiting to be shown
the command from God to tithe to the church, in the NC.

Actually its a Evangelical cop out, they claim to have Faith In God which will save them but not enough faith in a promise made by God to live a principle of faith... chuckle. Go figure!
 
No, it wasn't.


I already did. You never read Hebrews without Mormon glasses on, did you? it is all about how the new and better covenant of grace in Jesus' blood is so much BETTER than the OLD covenant in the blood of bulls and goats, with its priesthood that always perished and have to be replaced due to death.

What ever excuse needed to not have to teach a act of faith, you claim its not a law so be it.... yet God has given a promise if one does pay a tithe .... why are evangelicals so afraid to show forth enough faith to seek such a blessing, do you thing God reminded the blessing also... hmm
 
It's Gods law... we have discussed this before many times... so it seems Christians do not teach or preach that not only is it a law but ignore teaching about its blessings.. that "He will “open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Mal. 3:10).

It's actually a test to see if one has enough faith even in the worst of situations financially to believe in a promise, Gods promise of blessings and shall not be room enough... Evangelicals want to be rid of this, stating its a old testament principle... chuckle.
They claim faith alone saves yet not enough faith to live a promised law or principle... and why are they so afraid? Methinks they are afraid they will loose members... hmm
You and I have not discussed it. The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. You, as a Mormon, accept that item of the Old Covenant law. You do not require members to eat Kosher food or avoid pork, you disregard the Hebrew Sabbath, you allow circumcision but don't require it.

I believe Christ. I reject false prophets; I reject MORMONISM. You have NEVER heard an evangelical express fear of tithing, you are merely using the word "fear" to insert a negative accusation. Eternal life was paid for by Christ for all true Christians regardless of your objections. True Christians share the true Gospel and are not obsessed with numbers. GOD Knows and keeps every one of His sheep. Missionaries and pastors and reformers (Luther, Arminius, and Calvin did not save them; neither did Apollos nor Paul, nor James nor John.) JESUS SAVES; He doesn't need Joseph Smith's help. My God is omnipotent!
 
There is no need for a formal priesthood in the NT church--none whatsoever.
Your opinion is noted, but as long as there are church organizations there will be priesthood, the question then is, who has the authority to act in the name of God, not is there a priesthood.

The the church that Christ organized had a foundation of apostles and prophets, any church that does not have that priesthood is not organized the way Christ organized his church and therefore cannot be his church, but less have the priesthood that God organized.

The clear evidence in the scriptures provides that God's one true church would have both the Aaronic priesthood and the Melchizedek priesthood and that any church that does not have it is not God's church. You all have invented your own organization and claim that you teach the gospel and have the authority to administer it but you don't have either and that is obvious because your church is look nothing like God's church. Appearances can be deceiving, but you all don't even have the appearance of God's church.
 
I am still waiting for YOU to show me a command for those in the NT church to tithe
I have shown you where it is commanded, now show me where it was rescinded. Regardless of your opinions, you have to know that tithing is necessary to support the church. Why would God abolish something that is a necessity? That would be like abolishing food.
 
What ever excuse needed to not have to teach a act of faith, you claim its not a law so be it.... yet God has given a promise if one does pay a tithe .... why are evangelicals so afraid to show forth enough faith to seek such a blessing, do you thing God reminded the blessing also... hmm
They have their tithing. They are crawling all over themselves to prove something that of necessity is not necessary, like arguing that food is not necessary for life.
 
They have their tithing. They are crawling all over themselves to prove something that of necessity is not necessary, like arguing that food is not necessary for life.
No it is the Mormons who must do the crawling....

But DO show us FROM THE NT a command to TITHE to the church. Kindly do so.
 
I have shown you where it is commanded, now show me where it was rescinded.
I have already done so. the OLD covenant, which was the Law of Moses, has grown old and obsolete. That would include ALL of its rules and regulations that the Jews had to obey, centered on the temple.
Regardless of your opinions, you have to know that tithing is necessary to support the church.

GIVING is necessary to support the church, so it can BE a church, which is to preach the Good News of Jesus Christ to ALL people, support those who do the preaching, pray, praise, and give thanks to God in Christ Jesus our Lord, and to "love one another" as He has commanded us to. Don't need business conglomerations, theme parks, cattle ranches, etc. to do that.
Why would God abolish something that is a necessity? That would be like abolishing food.
Why would God institute a NEW and BETTER covenant that is NOT like the OLD covenant?
 
What ever excuse needed to not have to teach a act of faith, you claim its not a law so be it

it isn't a LAW in the NT church. If it were and so necessary, the apostles would have taught tithing as a law.

But you seem to think that unless a specific part of the OT law isn't mentioned as null and void in the NT church, it must still be in effect....is that it? Well then, do you require women in your church to isolate themselves during their menstrual cycles? Are they considered "unclean" at this time? If I remember right, anything a menstruating female sat on, under the Law of Moses, had to be burned. And I think she was still considered unclean until 7 days after she was finished menstruating, which meant no sex with her husband until then. Soooo....does your church follow THAT OT law, since it isn't mentioned or shown in the NT as being abolished?
.... yet God has given a promise if one does pay a tithe .... why are evangelicals so afraid to show forth enough faith to seek such a blessing, do you thing God reminded the blessing also... hmm
I cannot speak for other churches, but in mine, we think tithing is a fine thing and a good place to start. But we also believe that how much we give is between us and God. Paul says to "give as the Lord has prospered you."

I have told this story on here before but on the old boards so will tell it again on here. I once listened to a radio program called "Issues, etc." that came out of our church. The host, Pastor Todd Wilken, discussed various issues on this program. He would sometimes have special guests on his show, and afterwards, take calls from listeners. One time, he was discussing giving to the church and tithing. I came in late to the program, as I was driving to meet my husband for dinner at the seminary mess hall in St. Louis, but did hear the call-in part. One man wrote in that, while he was a Missouri Synod Lutheran now, he didn't used to be. He stated that in his old church, it heavily pushed tithing. He wanted to be on the church council, but wasn't allowed because, in that church's eyes, he wasn't giving enough. He had had some financial setbacks at that time, and just could not give a full tithe. So, he wasn't deemed "worthy" enough to be on the church council. Which depressed him.

He told all of this to his best friend, who was a Missouri Synod Lutheran, who invited him to his church, so he went. He loved it. He loved the sermons, which contain both Law and Gospel and how Jesus Christ and Him crucified for sinners and raised from the dead for our salvation was preached every Sunday. He took adult instruction and joined his friend's church. He loved being in the church. No one hounded him on how much he had to give or do. "But you know, Pastor Wilkin, I actually give MORE in my church NOW, than I did in my last church, even though my church never tells me how much to give."

Wilken's reply? "I am not surprised. The Gospel is always a better motivator than the Law."

I never forgot that.
 
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