No physical Temples?

[Bonnie]

"Imagery" that seems to elude the theology of every non-LDS Christian religion.

No, it doesn't.

They have nothing that even comes close to that imagery. But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't need to imagine anything. It has the imagery in tangible form.

It has whitewashed tombs in which dead, unclean works are performed to a false god, in which butchered and twisted versions of Creation and the Fall stories are shown in a video. Everything that goes on in the so-called "temples" is an abomination to the true God in Christ Jesus.

In fact, these actually do have multitudes dressed in white, in every nation and language worshipping day and night. No imagery needed.

In His temple. One temple. Not hundreds. But it represents the church. Later on, in Rev. 21, I think it is, it says there is no temple in the heavenly Jerusalem, because God is the temple and Jesus is its Lamp.

 

[Richard7]

Very good post and points, Elijah. Thanks. And very logical, too!

He stated that in Eph. 2:20, Jesus is referred to as both "the Foundation" and "the Chief Corner Stone." that is incorrect and completely false.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

19... reads: 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1979/09/follow-the-brethren?


In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches. More significant even than this is that there is no laity, no lay membership as such; men are eligible to hold the priesthood and to carry on the ministry of the Church, and both men and women serve in many auxiliary capacities. This responsibility comes to men whether they are rich or poor, and with this responsibility also comes the authority. There are many who would deny, and others who would disregard it; nevertheless, the measure of that authority does not depend on whether men sustain that authority, but rather depends on whether God will recognize and honor that authority.

 

[dberrie2020]

It has whitewashed tombs in which dead, unclean works are performed to a false god, in which butchered and twisted versions of Creation and the Fall stories are shown in a video. Everything that goes on in the so-called "temples" is an abomination to the true God in Christ Jesus.

That flies in the face of the testimony of the Biblical witness:

Revelation 7:13-15--King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Later on, in Rev. 21, I think it is, it says there is no temple in the heavenly Jerusalem, because God is the temple and Jesus is its Lamp.

Which means the temple is there prior to that point.

The LDS have the temple. In fact--if one were to read the description found in Rev7--there isn't another church on this earth which could fulfill that description, IMO.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie said---Whatever one believes the time frame is--it's still a pattern found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the scriptures.

The temple--with people dressed in white robes--working night and day in God's temple.

That defies any objection that temples aren't necessary anymore.

Mag--the fact is--you and the critics here keep denying the patterns set forth in the scriptures, and found in the NT church--apostles and prophets, temples, priesthood, heavenly revelations, etc--which your church, nor Bonnie's---has received--but the LDS church has.

Don't you find that a little strange? You deny the true pattern set forth in the scriptures, but push a theology found nowhere in the scriptures--and a church foundation which does not exist in the Biblical NT, IE--a church founded on self appointed preachers--not the living, mortal apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Anyone care to address this?

 

[brotherofJared]

That flies in the face of the testimony of the Biblical witness:

Revelation 7:13-15--King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.



Which means the temple is there prior to that point.

The LDS have the temple. In fact--if one were to read the description found in Rev7--there isn't another church on this earth which could fulfill that description, IMO.

True, and our critics will keep repeating the same old, same old... Argument. To me, it appears to be an act of desperation. They see the problem but continue with the only argument they have but it still doesn't address the obvious glaring issue. We have them and they don't. It's not like it couldn't be because it is. Imagery would be like locusts with the head of a man, or a being with six wings, with two he covers his face and two his feet and with two he flies. The only thing we have to compare that with is a bug. But I suspect that they would accept that as literal, but the existences of temples all over the world where people dressed in white of all nations can worship before God day and night - that's imagery. So something that exists is imagery and something that doesn't is literal. That seems backwards to me.

 

[Richard7]

He stated that in Eph. 2:20, Jesus is referred to as both "the Foundation" and "the Chief Corner Stone." that is incorrect and completely false.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

19... reads: 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Still waiting Bonnie... his quote of the scripture was wrong and yet you agreed with him...

 

[dberrie2020]

True, and our critics will keep repeating the same old, same old... Argument. To me, it appears to be an act of desperation. They see the problem but continue with the only argument they have but it still doesn't address the obvious glaring issue. We have them and they don't. It's not like it couldn't be because it is. Imagery would be like locusts with the head of a man, or a being with six wings, with two he covers his face and two his feet and with two he flies. The only thing we have to compare that with is a bug. But I suspect that they would accept that as literal, but the existences of temples all over the world where people dressed in white of all nations can worship before God day and night - that's imagery. So something that exists is imagery and something that doesn't is literal. That seems backwards to me.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm still waiting on some explanation to that very point. The fact is--the LDS have the temple--and it fits the description of Rev 7. No other church in the world has a temple which fits that description, IMO. That makes a loud statement, for me.

 

[Bonnie]

Still waiting Bonnie... his quote of the scripture was wrong and yet you agreed with him...

ONE foundation, Richard....not a different foundation laid over and over again, atop the first one. One only lays one foundation when building a building of some kind. Remember this verse from 1 Cor. 3?

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The ancient prophets and the Apostles are part of that foundation, inseparably mixed with the Lord Jesus Christ--but He Himself is the cornerstone, that holds the whole thing together. UPON THIS FOUNDATION Jesus built His church, to become a holy temple to the Lord.

Anyone can quote scripture and do so accurately--but that doesn't mean they rightly interpret it or use it correctly. Remember what Satan told Jesus, when he tempted Him in the wilderness? Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus and did so accurately, but he misused it, in an attempt to get Jesus to sin. How did Jesus counteract him? By quoting even MORE Scripture that put more context into what Satan quoted and proved he was misusing it.

That is what happens all too often with cults--the take Scriptures, quote out of context, and often twist and pervert their meanings, in order to justify their heretical teachings. Just as Satan did.

 

[Richard7]

ONE foundation, Richard....not a different foundation laid over and over again, atop the first one. One only lays one foundation when building a building of some kind. Remember this verse from 1 Cor. 3?



The ancient prophets and the Apostles are part of that foundation, inseparably mixed with the Lord Jesus Christ--but He Himself is the cornerstone, that holds the whole thing together. UPON THIS FOUNDATION Jesus built His church, to become a holy temple to the Lord.

Anyone can quote scripture and do so accurately--but that doesn't mean they rightly interpret it or use it correctly. Remember what Satan told Jesus, when he tempted Him in the wilderness? Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus and did so accurately, but he misused it, in an attempt to get Jesus to sin. How did Jesus counteract him? By quoting even MORE Scripture that put more context into what Satan quoted and proved he was misusing it.

That is what happens all too often with cults--the take Scriptures, quote out of context, and often twist and pervert their meanings, in order to justify their heretical teachings. Just as Satan did.

Scriptures do not at all agree with you ...

During His three-year mortal ministry, Jesus Christ conferred priesthood keys on His Twelve Apostles. With these keys, the Church of Jesus Christ was “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20.)
LDS.org

As a builder and General Contractor the following is standard building practices...

• What do a foundation and a cornerstone do for a building? (The foundation provides strength and support for the building. As the first stone placed in a foundation, the cornerstone is the reference point for the placement of all other foundation stones and determines the position of the whole building. It also helps to anchor the walls in place.)
• LDS.org

 

[Magdalena]

Scriptures do not at all agree with you ...

During His three-year mortal ministry, Jesus Christ conferred priesthood keys on His Twelve Apostles. With these keys, the Church of Jesus Christ was “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20.)
LDS.org

As a builder and General Contractor the following is standard building practices...

• What do a foundation and a cornerstone do for a building? (The foundation provides strength and support for the building. As the first stone placed in a foundation, the cornerstone is the reference point for the placement of all other foundation stones and determines the position of the whole building. It also helps to anchor the walls in place.)
• LDS.org

If a foundation is solid, do you have to replace it regularly?

 

[Bonnie]

Scriptures do not at all agree with you ...

During His three-year mortal ministry, Jesus Christ conferred priesthood keys on His Twelve Apostles. With these keys, the Church of Jesus Christ was “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20.)
LDS.org

As a builder and General Contractor the following is standard building practices...

• What do a foundation and a cornerstone do for a building? (The foundation provides strength and support for the building. As the first stone placed in a foundation, the cornerstone is the reference point for the placement of all other foundation stones and determines the position of the whole building. It also helps to anchor the walls in place.)
• LDS.org

These keys were not "priesthood" keys. And do note that the church is built--past tense--on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. The foundation was laid ONCE. Then the building is built upon that foundation.

Eph. 2--14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

This proves that we do indeed have temple in our churches. Says so right here.

The prophets and apostles mentioned here are the OT prophets and NT Apostles--the true ones. The church IS BUILT on the foundation of their foundation, with Jesus as the cornerstone. IS built. IN JESUS the whole building is joined together and RISING to become a holy temple in the Lord. The church is built upon this foundation--it doesn't get torn down to add new prophets and apostles from your church to its foundation, over and over again, Richard.

1 Cor. 3:10-15--10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So no one can add to that foundation, because it has already been laid and the foundation is Jesus Christ. That means your prophets and apostles are false and not part of the foundation of the church.

 

[Richard7]

If a foundation is solid, do you have to replace it regularly?

Replace? like another religion that does not recognize the first Church of Jesus Christ? If its solid then that foundation should have endured.
But Christ knew and so did other prophets prophesied there would be a falling away... so the question is why? well God our Father understood that his true Church would need Keys (authority) and since the apostles held the Keys (authority) as in Peter received the Keys of the kingdom, then without keys (authority) the Church could no longer stand upon the foundation for it was no more... simple.

 

[Richard7]

These keys were not "priesthood" keys. And do note that the church is built--past tense--on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. The foundation was laid ONCE. Then the building is built upon that foundation.

Nope, not what the scriptures tell us... foundation is only as good to the point of being complete as the scriptures tell us... complete as originally stated.... Prophets and Apostles and Christ being the corner stone... as we all know, that foundation ceased to exist... where does it say the foundation would change to Bishops and no prophet... you can't find a example unless you change the foundation...

This proves that we do indeed have temple in our churches. Says so right here.

The prophets and apostles mentioned here are the OT prophets and NT Apostles--the true ones. The church IS BUILT on the foundation of their foundation, with Jesus as the cornerstone. IS built. IN JESUS the whole building is joined together and RISING to become a holy temple in the Lord. The church is built upon this foundation--it doesn't get torn down to add new prophets and apostles from your church to its foundation, over and over again, Richard.

How do you figure, did not Christ start his new church with apostles and Christ being the cornerstone and Prophet.. It never said the foundation was the NT apostles, just Apostles and Prophets... you are doing exactly what your were warned against.. adding to the word of God..

So no one can add to that foundation, because it has already been laid and the foundation is Jesus Christ. That means your prophets and apostles are false and not part of the foundation of the church.

Well if you want to change scripture your are warned not to.... have you ever wondered why the Apostles were always trying to maintain 12... hmm

 

[Janice Bower]

If one can show the existence of any temple--with people working in the temple with white robes--serving God--then the claims of the critics here are false:

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Bonnie has maintained there is no need of the temple today.

GOD made us Christians temples of the Holy Spirit. Bonnie is right as usual.

 

[Janice Bower]

Replace? like another religion that does not recognize the first Church of Jesus Christ? If its solid then that foundation should have endured.
But Christ knew and so did other prophets prophesied there would be a falling away... so the question is why? well God our Father understood that his true Church would need Keys (authority) and since the apostles held the Keys (authority) as in Peter received the Keys of the kingdom, then without keys (authority) the Church could no longer stand upon the foundation for it was no more... simple.

That foundation endured. The gates of hell could not prevail against it.

 

[Bonnie]

That foundation endured. The gates of hell could not prevail against it.

This is most certainly true. The LDS church claims it did, until Joseph Smith, Jr. came along. What unmitigated arrogance! They have made Jesus Christ out to be a liar.

 

[Richard7]

That foundation endured. The gates of hell could not prevail against it.

And the offshoot Churches who were without Apostles and Keys (authority) gave away all authority to act in Gods name when they even acknowledged they did not have the Keys of the Kingdom. .... today nobody is sure which church to go to... but the scriptures know and claim what to look for... today we have many Lords, many faiths and no essential and required doctrine of a ordinance called baptism...

Ephesians 4:5-6
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Richard7]

This is most certainly true. The LDS church claims it did, until Joseph Smith, Jr. came along. What unmitigated arrogance! They have made Jesus Christ out to be a liar.

You messed up the translation of the gates of hell and changed its meaning... so we see christian adding to the word of God.

Why would the gates not “prevail”? Why the church?

If gates fail to prevent passage, they did not prevail against the person wanting passage. They do not prevail against the Church because as members of the Church of Jesus Christ we perform a very important function for those imprisoned in those gates. Redeeming the dead. When we do the vicarious ordinances for the dead, we are forcing open the gates of hell and allowing passage from hell, those spirits for whom we have performed the work. They did not prevail against us because they cannot withstand the power of God.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:34-41

What prison do you think the Lord was talking about? I believe the Lord meant more than the justice system of whatever nation we’re in. The Lord was talking about Spirit Prison. On earth, we are imprisoned by our sin through separation from God. After this life, there is a spiritual prison that will not open except to those performing the ordinances of the temple.

Through the temple, we have the opportunity to go to the gates of hell and release those spirits who have long since slumbered.

Baptism allows them to be released from prison. The sacrament of bread and water are part of that ordinance. They are spiritually fed and thirst abated (3 Nephi 18:9, 3 Nephi 19:13). Temple ordinances clothe the naked. We invite all the strangers to become part of the fold of God.

Are the gates of hell a physical place?

Question Gramps, Many times in the Doctrine and Covenants we are told “the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.” What does this mean? Why this imagery? Are the gates of hell a physical location or a spiritual position? Shelly Answer Shelly, Thank you for your question. This...

askgramps.org

 

[brotherofJared]

ONE foundation, Richard

Correct, that's one church, not thousands of churches with differing doctrine. The objective of anyone actually seeking the truth should recognize that and seek that one true church.