The parable of the talents

dberrie2020

Super Member
Aaron32 said:
Well, does faith come from us, or from God?
Because if Paul continues to say: "...not of yourselves"
There's nothing from us that saves us.

But if our salvation is "grace + faith" and neither of those are from us, then that means your Calvinist and you don't believe in free agency.

I believe there is an important point you might be overlooking:

Matthew 25:14-30--King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


IOW--even though the gifts came from the Lord--the servants were still held accountable for what they did with those gifts, and that for "the joy of thy lord", or--"outer darkness"--something called judgment according to works.

Aaron--those works come from each individual, and each are judged according to their works-- and that for life or damnation--as to those works. IOW--God grants His saving grace unto life--to them which obey Him.

Please do note those who did well with the gifts--were called "faithful".
 
I believe there is an important point you might be overlooking:

Matthew 25:14-30--King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


IOW--even though the gifts came from the Lord--the servants were still held accountable for what they did with those gifts, and that for "the joy of thy lord", or--"outer darkness"--something called judgment according to works.

Aaron--those works come from each individual, and each are judged according to their works-- and that for life or damnation--as to those works. IOW--God grants His saving grace unto life--to them which obey Him.
Yes, we have agency to choose to obey.

The works may be ours, but they are a result of our faith, which is a result of God's word.

We keep the commandments, and we are immediately blessed. We remain unprofitable servants. So what have we to boast? (See Mosiah 2)
Please do note those who did well with the gifts--were called "faithful".
Yes. We are saved by grace alone and we have a living faith.
What else is new?
 
Yes, we have agency to choose to obey.

My point isn't about agency--it's about the servants being judged in accordance with what they did with the gifts they were given.

And that for--"the joy of thy lord" ---or---damnation.

So--when we claim faith is the gift of God--please remember that parable. There is more to the story than faith being a gift.

The works may be ours, but they are a result of our faith, which is a result of God's word.

The servants were judged according to what they did with the gifts, period. That defies any claim that faith being a gift-- absolves one of the judgment which results from what they do with the gifts, as to obtaining eternal life.

Again--faith alone theology absolves one of what they do with the gift--as to obtaining eternal life. It completely excludes any of those considerations. The Bible doesn't--and neither does the LDS church theology include any such doctrine.

I interpret the "joy of thy lord" as eternal life.

We keep the commandments, and we are immediately blessed. We remain unprofitable servants.

That doesn't annul the fact the servants were judged according to what they did with the gifts, nor that the Lord called them "faithful"--which magnified their talents.

So what have we to boast? (See Mosiah 2)

I didn't find the servants boasting. That's just a diversion. Sour grapes.

Yes. We are saved by grace alone and we have a living faith.
What else is new?

What's new is that if the parable of the talents is true--then one can't rely on the fact faith is a gift, in obtaining eternal life. There is more to the story, IE--each servant was judged according to what they did with those gifts--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or--outer darkness.

For faith alone theology--that would be something new.
 
My point isn't about agency--it's about the servants being judged in accordance with what they did with the gifts they were given.

And that for--"the joy of thy lord" ---or---damnation.

So--when we claim faith is the gift of God--please remember that parable. There is more to the story than faith being a gift.

The servants were judged according to what they did with the gifts, period. That defies any claim that faith being a gift-- absolves one of the judgment which results from what they do with the gifts, as to obtaining eternal life.

Again--faith alone theology absolves one of what they do with the gift--as to obtaining eternal life. It completely excludes any of those considerations. The Bible doesn't--and neither does the LDS church theology include any such doctrine.

That doesn't annul the fact the servants were judged according to what they did with the gifts, nor that the Lord called them "faithful"--which magnified their talents.
Yes. People are judged according to their gifts. Some have one talent, some have many.
Maybe that's why were judged individually against our own ability, and not against a set standard.

Those with a living faith invest their talents gifted to them. Thus, salvation is theirs for the taking.
 
Yes. People are judged according to their gifts.

I believe the parable was a little more specific, IE--they were judged in accordance with what they DID with the gifts.

Some have one talent, some have many.

And all were judged with the same judgment--IE--Judged according to what they did with what gifts they were given, whether it be few--or many.

Maybe that's why were judged individually against our own ability, and not against a set standard.

The standard didn't change--it remained the same, ---what they did with the gifts.

Those with a living faith invest their talents gifted to them.

No servant was termed "faithful" except those who had invested wisely. That's an important point to remember.

Thus, salvation is theirs for the taking.

It was theirs due to God's grace. He extended His grace---to them which did His will, and in that order.

I was hoping you would find they were all His servants to begin with:

Matthew 25:14-30--King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
 
I believe the parable was a little more specific, IE--they were judged in accordance with what they DID with the gifts.

And all were judged with the same judgment--IE--Judged according to what they did with what gifts they were given, whether it be few--or many.

The standard didn't change--it remained the same, ---what they did with the gifts.

No servant was termed "faithful" except those who had invested wisely. That's an important point to remember.

It was theirs due to God's grace. He extended His grace---to them which did His will, and in that order.

I was hoping you would find they were all His servants to begin with:

Matthew 25:14-30--King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
This is an extremely dumb conversation.
Yes, they were his servants. Yes, their works followed their faith. They do it according the the Holy Ghost, not by following the standards of men.
The problem isn't what I believe, the problem is what you want me to believe.You want to paint on me that I believe in a do nothing gospel. I'm sorry, that's not what I believe.
I can believe I'm saved dberrie, I can find joy living the gospel, and serve out of the pure love of Christ. My talents and stewardship gets multiplied or diminished based on where the Father wants me to be. I know that's hooey to you, but to me, I think that's evidence of your pride. Some people actually do receive their calling and election made sure in this life just as Abraham did and continually find the joy to live in.
Now, unless you can find scriptures that prove my belief stated above will result in damnation - (that I am saved by grace, and I have a living faith) I'm really not interested. Further claims implying I believe in a do nothing easy gracism will simply be ignored.
 
The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

The children of Israel were called "servants" but they were not all saved. Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. *Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, (the Israelites) but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Isaiah 43:10 - “You (Israel vs. 1) are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..
 
The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

The children of Israel were called "servants" but they were not all saved. Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. *Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, (the Israelites) but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Isaiah 43:10 - “You (Israel vs. 1) are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..
Very good analysis, MMDAN--the best I have ever seen of this passage. God bless you.
 
This is an extremely dumb conversation.
Yes, they were his servants. Yes, their works followed their faith. They do it according the the Holy Ghost, not by following the standards of men.
The problem isn't what I believe, the problem is what you want me to believe.You want to paint on me that I believe in a do nothing gospel. I'm sorry, that's not what I believe.
I can believe I'm saved dberrie, I can find joy living the gospel, and serve out of the pure love of Christ. My talents and stewardship gets multiplied or diminished based on where the Father wants me to be. I know that's hooey to you, but to me, I think that's evidence of your pride. Some people actually do receive their calling and election made sure in this life just as Abraham did and continually find the joy to live in.
Now, unless you can find scriptures that prove my belief stated above will result in damnation - (that I am saved by grace, and I have a living faith) I'm really not interested. Further claims implying I believe in a do nothing easy gracism will simply be ignored.

For me--this sounds like sour grapes. I'm not even sure how you are relating this to the OP.

Aaron--the parable of the talents shows there is an accountability to what we do with God's gifts--and it defies any claim of faith alone adherents that there is no acts of accountability to those gifts--as to eternal life.
 
For me--this sounds like sour grapes. I'm not even sure how you are relating this to the OP.
Why would I care what you think it sounds like if I believe you are blind?
Aaron--the parable of the talents shows there is an accountability to what we do with God's gifts-
No duh.
-and it defies any claim of faith alone adherents that there is no acts of accountability to those gifts--as to eternal life.
I don't know where you draw the conclusion that because one believes they are saved by grace and has a living faith they believe they won't be held accountable.
We will be held accountable, and after we are held accountable we will still recognize that we were saved by grace through a living faith and not of ourselves.

D&C 76:
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever
 
Yes. People are judged according to their gifts.
Not so. We are judges according to what we DO with our talents.
Some have one talent, some have many.
irrelevant.
Maybe that's why were judged individually against our own ability, and not against a set standard.
There is a set standard and we will all be judged against it. As for doing good works, that may be adjusted for ability.
Those with a living faith invest their talents gifted to them. Thus, salvation is theirs for the taking.
Only if they actually do the work, but salvation comes only to those who obey the commandments.
 
Not so. We are judges according to what we DO with our talents.
Echo chamber much? What's the matter? Can't think of an original argument?
There is a set standard and we will all be judged against it. As for doing good works, that may be adjusted for ability.
What standard is that?
Only if they actually do the work, but salvation comes only to those who obey the commandments.
Those with living faith actually do the work and obey, so this is a non-issue.
 
Those with living faith actually do the work and obey, so this is a non-issue.
No. Really, it is an issue. It's an issue of false doctrine that isn't taught in the Bible. There is not such thing as faith alone or Grace alone. It's works that expose our faith, not faith that exposes our works. Such a doctrine not only destroys any possibility of salvation for those who never heard the gospel but misleads those who have. Works do NOT naturally follow faith and to claim it does is a lie deceiving the would be hopeful follower of Christ because it's not true.

Keep the commandments first and faith will follow. To be clear, faith follows works.
 
No. Really, it is an issue. It's an issue of false doctrine that isn't taught in the Bible. There is not such thing as faith alone or Grace alone. It's works that expose our faith, not faith that exposes our works. Such a doctrine not only destroys any possibility of salvation for those who never heard the gospel but misleads those who have. Works do NOT naturally follow faith and to claim it does is a lie deceiving the would be hopeful follower of Christ because it's not true.

Keep the commandments first and faith will follow. To be clear, faith follows works.
No, it doesn’t.

The thief on the cross had faith and couldn’t do works. He was saved. When people bragged about all their works to Christ, He said he didn’t know them. When He healed people, He said “Your faith has made you whole.” You follow Him because of faith. You want to be like Him because of faith.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
 
No. Really, it is an issue. It's an issue of false doctrine that isn't taught in the Bible. There is not such thing as faith alone or Grace alone. It's works that expose our faith, not faith that exposes our works.
If you want to separate faith from works and make it more complicated than it is, you are welcome to. But when I talk about faith is assumes work follows.
I go to work in the morning because I have faith I'll receive a paycheck. I plant a garden because I believe I'll receive food. I follow Jesus Christ because I believe I'll receive salvation.
If I didn't have faith in certain things, I wouldn't act.
Such a doctrine not only destroys any possibility of salvation for those who never heard the gospel but misleads those who have.
I'm not worried about that. God gives ears to those he wants to hear.
Works do NOT naturally follow faith and to claim it does is a lie deceiving the would be hopeful follower of Christ because it's not true.
Sure they do. Without belief there is no action. Thus, our actions follow what we believe.
Keep the commandments first and faith will follow. To be clear, faith follows works.
The first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not "keep the commandments".
 
If you want to separate faith from works and make it more complicated than it is, you are welcome to. But when I talk about faith is assumes work follows.
That's my whole point, but I think you understand that. Your trying to make the issue about something else. You separated faith and works, not me. Faith is exposed by our works, not the other way around.
 
I go to work in the morning because I have faith I'll receive a paycheck
LOL. That's not faith. You go to work in the morning BECAUSE you will receive a check. No faith involved.
I plant a garden because I believe I'll receive food.
Perhaps in a day when we didn't know what planting seeds would do, but today, we plant a garden because we know it will produce food. People that have faith might graft the branches of a sweet pear tree in hope that the tree will produce better fruit. That might be faith because they have hope and assurance in something yet unseen. Once we know it works, it is no longer faith but knowledge.
I follow Jesus Christ because I believe I'll receive salvation.
Now you are mixing apples and oranges. Your little twist for whatever point you thought you might be making depends on if you actually follow. You just described belief, faith is in the action, in the work. Without which you can believe anything you want but it won't make it true.
 
That's my whole point, but I think you understand that. Your trying to make the issue about something else. You separated faith and works, not me. Faith is exposed by our works, not the other way around.
This where I just sit back and learn more about me, according to BoJ. Go ahead what am I trying to make the issue about.
Faith is not just another name for works, as you seem to think it is.
 
Perhaps in a day when we didn't know what planting seeds would do, but today, we plant a garden because we know it will produce food. People that have faith might graft the branches of a sweet pear tree in hope that the tree will produce better fruit. That might be faith because they have hope and assurance in something yet unseen. Once we know it works, it is no longer faith but knowledge.

Now you are mixing apples and oranges. Your little twist for whatever point you thought you might be making depends on if you actually follow. You just described belief, faith is in the action, in the work. Without which you can believe anything you want but it won't make it true.
What do expect to accomplish going in circles like this? You won't agree with me and I won't agree with you.
I believe faith is trust. If we honestly believe it, works follow.
 
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