treeplanter
Well-known member
An ordained Christian minister who transcends and rises far above the evils of Christianity
My neighbor, Mr. Rogers
Good speech and bold to ask everyone in the audience to take time to recognize someone who influenced their lives for good.An ordained Christian minister who transcends and rises far above the evils of Christianity
My neighbor, Mr. Rogers
I'm not crying, you're crying.
An ordained Christian minister who transcends and rises far above the evils of Christianity
My neighbor, Mr. Rogers
Wow, you pivot from a "Christian who transcends" to the negative so fast that I think I got whiplash from it. You couldn't just say Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a Christian should be, and take a breath before impugning his Savior?Fred Rogers put others first - a man who truly loved his neighbor as he loved himself!
Unfortunately, Jesus Christ tells us that this is of only secondary importance
According to Jesus Christ, the first and greatest commandment is to love God
God puts Himself first and demands that He be recognized and praised and worshiped and glorified at the threat of eternal damnation
Last I checked Christians are humans too.edit
It is not EITHER love God or love your neighbor. You are trying to mischaracterize what Jesus said.edit
Jesus said that God judges no one. I cannot help it that most of Christianity ignores what he said. If you are going to criticize Jesus for something then at least criticize what he says, and not the opposite of what he says.edit
edit
Scripture is not the work of a single person or organization. It is a compilation of at least 66 books written by over 35 authors from different cultures/nations over a period of about 3,000 years. There is no "scripture" that teaches one clear message, otherwise, there wouldn't be so many different takes on it.edit
You are rambling.edit
Human systems of government judge people too, so are you going to rant against the Dept. of Justice too. Your generalizations are irrational and meaningless. It is clearly a rant.edit
1. Yes, Christians are human beings - where did I say or intimate otherwise?Last I checked Christians are humans too.
It is not EITHER love God or love your neighbor. You are trying to mischaracterize what Jesus said.
Jesus said that God judges no one. I cannot help it that most of Christianity ignores what he said. If you are going to criticize Jesus for something then at least criticize what he says, and not the opposite of what he says.
So now you are teaching theology, so you can rant against it. Sounds like a straw-man argument.
Scripture is not the work of a single person or organization. It is a compilation of at least 66 books written by over 35 authors from different cultures/nations over a period of about 3,000 years. There is no "scripture" that teaches one clear message, otherwise, there wouldn't be so many different takes on it.
The prudent thing for someone who neither believes that there is a God nor understands what "scripture' means would be to focus your criticisms on specific problems/concerns that you have with certain teachings. To just say that God is evil because he judges everyone is both inaccurate (per Jesus own statement) and meaningless, because humans have found justice and judgment to be a good thing for maintaining the peace.
You are rambling.
Human systems of government judge people too, so are you going to rant against the Dept. of Justice too. Your generalizations are irrational and meaningless. It is clearly a rant.
When you said, "Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a HUMAN BEING should be, not what a Christian should be" (Post #6)1. Yes, Christians are human beings - where did I say or intimate otherwise?
You are criticizing Jesus for saying to love God, who Jesus also says is the only one truly Good. Do you even hear yourself?You suggested that Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a Christian should be
I am suggesting that Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a human being should be
You disagree?
2. I am not suggesting that a Christian cannot love neighbor because Christ said that loving God is the first and greatest command
It is you who is mischaracterizing me, Doc!
I am criticizing Jesus for what He said - He said that the FIRST and GREATEST command is to love God
The first and greatest command should be to love neighbor - not God
It depends. If Jesus says that his Father judges no one, but instead has given all judgment to the Son, then it is pretty clear that Jesus thinks YHWH Elohim is associated with the Son. Consequently, your gripe should be with YHWH rather than with Jesus and his God who alone is Good. Which is why I said your generalizations about God are inaccurate and meaningless.3. Great, Jesus said that God judges no one and many Christians ignore John 5:22
What you are ignoring, however, is that Genesis 18:25 refers to YHVH as "Judge of all the earth"
The bible is chockful of contradiction, haven't you noticed?
see above4. YHVH/God and Jesus Christ are ONE IN THE SAME
You choose to criticize me for knowing what your theology teaches?
Look, Doc - you're the one asserting that God doesn't judge on the basis of what Jesus said in John 5:22
Now you begrudge me taking the opportunity to point out that, per YOUR theology, what the one says - so, too, does the other?
Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing? Do you think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them? Seriously.5. Indeed, scripture is the work of many men over many years - what makes you think I don't know this?
Indeed, there are many different 'takes' on Christianity, however, there are certain core teachings common to all takes
God, The Father, and God, The Son, being one in the same is one such teaching common to all 'takes'
That love for God, rather than neighbor, is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment is another
I am specifically criticizing the teaching that love for God is of primary importance
This is selfishness on God's part
When you said, "In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)Where in the world did I say that God is evil because He judges us???
God has no needs so how can he be selfish. If you think it's wrong to love the source of life who alone is Good, per Jesus, then you and I have a different appreciation for life.Here, again, you are mischaracterizing me!!!
I have never claimed that it is evil to judge
Hell, I judge people all the time and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever
6. Rambling?
I don't think so, Doc
You suggested that I am being negative
I am simply seeking to explain that there is nothing negative in pointing out the negative that God imposes upon us
Specifically, what negative you wonder?
That He cares more about Himself and His own selfish needs than He does about us
When you said, ""In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)7. Again, where do you get this asinine idea that I am being critical of judgement itself?
I am reading your post which contains inaccurate generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgment. It is also a shame that you took a feel good story about Mr. Rogers who you admit was a Christian minister and turned it into a soapbox to rant against Jesus Christ and his God, for what? For Jesus honoring the only Good One who gave us life and judges no one.I generally have found you to be a pleasant and conscientious poster, but you have completely misunderstood what I am saying
I suggest that you reread the exchange
You're not making sense - how is an assertion that Fred Rogers is something that we should all {not just Christians} aspire to be - the same thing, in your mind, as an assertion that Christians are not human beings?When you said, "Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a HUMAN BEING should be, not what a Christian should be" (Post #6)
You are criticizing Jesus for saying to love God, who Jesus also says is the only one truly Good. Do you even hear yourself?
It depends. If Jesus says that his Father judges no one, but instead has given all judgment to the Son, then it is pretty clear that Jesus thinks YHWH Elohim is associated with the Son. Consequently, your gripe should be with YHWH rather than with Jesus and his God who alone is Good. Which is why I said your generalizations about God are inaccurate and meaningless.
see above
Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing? Do you think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them? Seriously.
When you said, "In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)
God has no needs so how can he be selfish. If you think it's wrong to love the source of life who alone is Good, per Jesus, then you and I have a different appreciation for life.
When you said, ""In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)
I am reading your post which contains inaccurate generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgment. It is also a shame that you took a feel good story about Mr. Rogers who you admit was a Christian minister and turned it into a soapbox to rant against Jesus Christ and his God, for what? For Jesus honoring the only Good One who gave us life and judges no one.
Already addressed in previous posts. Unlike some on here I don't go round and round until we fall down from dizziness.You're not making sense - how is an assertion that Fred Rogers is something that we should all {not just Christians} aspire to be - the same thing, in your mind, as an assertion that Christians are not human beings?
I am criticizing Jesus Christ for saying that loving God {i.e. Himself} is more important than loving our neighbor
I am criticizing Jesus Christ for saying that the most important thing is to love God {i.e. Himself}
This is NOT the same thing as criticizing Jesus for saying to love God!
NOR is it the same thing as suggesting that a Christian cannot love his neighbor!
You say my beliefs are strange because they stand out from Christian orthodoxy or mainstream Christianity. Thank you. That is a complement. Remember, THOSE people you compare me too still deny the facts of our world, for example, evolution. They still believe myths/superstitions as historical events. Need I say more?You have some strange beliefs
In a world of strange beliefs {Christianity} - you stand out apart from the rest
Jesus is some sort of intermediary between 'good god' Elohim and 'bad god' YHVH?
Bizarre...
Mainstream Christianity and the vast, overwhelming majority of the world's Christians are of one mind wherein God exists as a single entity comprised of three coeternal and consubstantial persons - separate and yet the same, Father and Son and Holy Ghost
If there is nothing wrong for loving parents because they brought you into this world then there is nothing wrong for loving the source of your existence. That is all Jesus is saying, yet you have twisted it into something deserving of condemnation.Consequently, my gripe with YHVH IS my gripe with Christ and my gripe with Christ IS my gripe with YHVH
"Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing?"
It's not!
"Do {I} think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them?"
No, of course not!
You got it backwards (to no fault of your own, I blame Christian orthodoxy's twisting of scripture). The true God of Jesus sent Jesus to give life because the universe was already lifeless and damned before we came along. Rather than the glass being half-empty, the glass is actually half-full. This is our opportunity to experience and know the Good One who is the source of existence. If we are misled to make baseless rants against him rather than using our God-given intelligence to seek him out, then whose fault is it if that person never finds him, --never ascends beyond a material existence: jealousy, wrath, impatience, error, slavery, envy, and so on, being the works of the flesh (matter) alone.What is selfish is decreeing that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
What is selfish is demanding to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation
Who said God sent Mr. Rogers to hell? You? For the record, we are already in hell but that is another OP.What is selfish is sending a good person {somebody who lived a good life like Mr. Rogers} to Hell because he/she didn't know and love God
Besides trying to divide the commands which is never in the text, you fail to recognize that Jesus said God (Jesus' God, namely, El) alone is good. Assuming he is right then what is wrong with loving Good? Another apostle says that God is love. What is wrong with devoting oneself to love?I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity decreed that loving Him is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment - more important than a decree to love our neighbors
The actual name of Yeshua means salvation in Aramaic. If you have salvation then you have Yeshua, and visa versa. And Paul describes the inner Christ as virtues: love, patience, good, truth, freedom, etc. Therefore, to be virtuous is to be on the path of salvation or Yeshua. On the other hand, people who ruled by error, wrath, envy, jealousy, don't have salvation so they cannot be saved.I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity demands to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation - there is no salvation apart from coming to Jesus Christ
If eternal torment is a punishment then I refuse to serve any God who allows it because by any standard it would be torture. Usually, when eternal torment is mentioned it is in the context of allegory and figurative language or parable so the literal meaning is suspect. IMO, extinction is the better meaning for those who choose bad, which in a way, is eternal torment, because they miss out on the eternal life provided those who choose what is most excellent.I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity burns and tortures good and decent human beings who lived good and decent lives of service to others {just like Mr. Rogers} and all because they didn't know Him and love Him in their lifetimes
Not only is God and His judgement a 'negative' - God and His judgement is flat out evil
However, this is NOT the same thing as asserting that judgement itself is a negative or evil thing - as you have erroneously attributed to me
Maybe because he knows that bad is incompatible with life, so he refuses to allow bad to exist eternally. In that case, he actually would be allowing eternal torment to those who suffered from the bad. No, this time is temporary, for a reason, for us to choose the good and so become like him, and he consequently cannot refuse himself. The material world will change but he will revive us who are like him at the right time, when the world is compatible for eternal life.God {or anyone else for that matter} passing judgement is NOT negative and evil
The particular judgement{s} that God has made/passed is what is negative and evil
God has no needs?
Then why, according to scripture and mainstream Christianity, does He demand to be loved, praised, worshiped, and glorified at the threat of eternal damnation?
Like any good parent, he wants the best for us while recognizing our independence.Sounds pretty needy to me...
No, I do NOT think that it's wrong to love the source of life!
I never, ever said that I do - where do you get these strange notions about me?
What I said is that it is evil for God to decree that man loving Him is more important than man loving neighbor
What I said is that it is evil for God to demand to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation
What I said is that it is evil for God to burn and torture good people for the 'crime' of not having loved Him
My generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgement are NOT inaccurate
To the contrary, my generalizations accurately reflect God, Jesus, and judgement as depicted in scripture
My generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgement are in accord with the generalizations as held by mainstream Christianity
Your generalizations, on the other hand, seem to be of a decidedly unusual and oddball brand of Christianity - if, indeed, it can even be called that
Nor do I care to go round and round, Doc!Already addressed in previous posts. Unlike some on here I don't go round and round until we fall down from dizziness.
You say my beliefs are strange because they stand out from Christian orthodoxy or mainstream Christianity. Thank you. That is a complement. Remember, THOSE people you compare me too still deny the facts of our world, for example, evolution. They still believe myths/superstitions as historical events. Need I say more?
For the record, the New Testament teaches in a "true God and Father" "who alone is Good". In the Old Testament he is El. El is a monad, a single thing. But El is manifest in creation as many gods or Elohim. Elohim is plural for El. YHWH and Ruach are members of the Elohim, as are we, but the archetypes for good and bad in the Old Testament/New Testament are Good: Ruach Elohim/Jesus and Bad: YHWH Elohim/Adversary, respectively.
So you are criticizing things that you don't understand. you also contradict yourself at times, for example, saying Mr. Rogers is a good, ordained, Christian minister but Christianity is evil. Maybe in some convoluted way that makes sense to you but it doesn't on its face. Either way I don't care arguing about it.
If there is nothing wrong for loving parents because they brought you into this world then there is nothing wrong for loving the source of your existence. That is all Jesus is saying, yet you have twisted it into something deserving of condemnation.
You got it backwards (to no fault of your own, I blame Christian orthodoxy's twisting of scripture). The true God of Jesus sent Jesus to give life because the universe was already lifeless and damned before we came along. Rather than the glass being half-empty, the glass is actually half-full. This is our opportunity to experience and know the Good One who is the source of existence. If we are misled to make baseless rants against him rather than using our God-given intelligence to seek him out, then whose fault is it if that person never finds him, --never ascends beyond a material existence: jealousy, wrath, impatience, error, slavery, envy, and so on, being the works of the flesh (matter) alone.
Who said God sent Mr. Rogers to hell? You? For the record, we are already in hell but that is another OP.
Besides trying to divide the commands which is never in the text, you fail to recognize that Jesus said God (Jesus' God, namely, El) alone is good. Assuming he is right then what is wrong with loving Good? Another apostle says that God is love. What is wrong with devoting oneself to love?
Do you see? There is another way at looking at this whereas your tunnel vision is leading you down a dead end path. You will spend so much time attacking what you don't know that you will miss out on something so much better.
The actual name of Yeshua means salvation in Aramaic. If you have salvation then you have Yeshua, and visa versa. And Paul describes the inner Christ as virtues: love, patience, good, truth, freedom, etc. Therefore, to be virtuous is to be on the path of salvation or Yeshua. On the other hand, people who ruled by error, wrath, envy, jealousy, don't have salvation so they cannot be saved.
If eternal torment is a punishment then I refuse to serve any God who allows it because by any standard it would be torture. Usually, when eternal torment is mentioned it is in the context of allegory and figurative language or parable so the literal meaning is suspect. IMO, extinction is the better meaning for those who choose bad, which in a way, is eternal torment, because they miss out on the eternal life provided those who choose what is most excellent.
As long as you continue to make generalizations about judgment then you open yourself to criticism and I will continue to point that out. If you are specific about what you don't like based on reason, for example, eternal torture, then I will back you up. If humans can reasons what a humane punishment would be then God should be able to do better.
Maybe because he knows that bad is incompatible with life, so he refuses to allow bad to exist eternally. In that case, he actually would be allowing eternal torment to those who suffered from the bad. No, this time is temporary, for a reason, for us to choose the good and so become like him, and he consequently cannot refuse himself. The material world will change but he will revive us who are like him at the right time, when the world is compatible for eternal life.
Like any good parent, he wants the best for us while recognizing our independence.
The same can be said of Billy Graham, and he led millions to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.Good speech and bold to ask everyone in the audience to take time to recognize someone who influenced their lives for good.
Quite the statement of atheistic hubris! The Son of the Living God is somehow beholden to your ideas about what He should have done while on earth?That is not true - what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
That's not what TP said at all.Quite the statement of atheistic hubris! The Son of the Living God is somehow beholden to your ideas about what He should have done while on earth?
Please demonstrate to me where I was incorrect in that direct quote
what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
The Son of the Living God is somehow beholden to your ideas about what He should have done while on earth?
Ok, but you were generalizing about things like God and judgment in your initial response to me (post #3) based on one perspective of God and judgment. What if I generalized how evil a-theists are because most a-theists were communists not that long ago and they killed millions? That is how I feel when I read your generalizations. You have cleared some things up in your recent post but it wasn't clear initially.Nor do I care to go round and round, Doc!
What I do care about, though, is clearing my name
You suggested that I was criticizing Jesus for saying to love God
That is not true - what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
You suggested that I was claiming that a Christian cannot love neighbor because he/she loves God
Also, not true - Christians can and do love their neighbors
I agree with you - there is nothing wrong with loving the source of existence
What IS deserving of condemnation is a command to love that source at the threat of eternal damnation
What IS deserving of condemnation is to say that it is more important to love the source than it is to love each other
I haven't twisted anything, Doc - this is what fundamentalist Christianity teaches!
Nobody I know of claims that God sent Mr. Rogers to Hell -LEAST OF ALL ME!
Once again, you are misunderstanding me, Doc
What I said is that it is selfish to send a person to Hell for the 'crime' of not accepting Jesus
This is what God does - according to fundamentalist Christianity - He sends people to Hell for not believing
Even when these people lived good lives {lives dedicated to the service of others - lives just like the one Mr. Rogers lived}
Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
This is what scripture says, Doc - this is not in dispute
FIRST and GREATEST is to love God
If loving God is FIRST, then by definition, to love neighbor is of SECONDARY importance
If loving God is GREATEST, then by definition, to love neighbor is GREAT, but not as great as loving God
That said, it's not me who "divides the commands" - it's the fundamentalist Christians who divide the commands!
It's the fundamentalist Christians who cling to the idea that loving God is of the most absolute paramount importance
It's the fundamentalist Christians who insist that God, Himself, insists that loving Him be the absolute most important thing
After all, loving God is the one and only basis on which God determines the eternal dispensation of our souls - per Christians
Accept Jesus Christ and you will go to Heaven regardless of your moral character
Fail to accept Jesus Christ and you will go to Hell regardless of your moral character
This is what fundamentalist Christians believe
It is them - the fundamentalist Christians - that I am addressing in this thread
As far as judgement goes:
You suggested that I was claiming that judgement, itself, is negative or evil
I said no such thing!
Nor do I see where I have made any "generalizations' about judgement, Doc
I believe I have been quite clear about the specific judgements of God that I consider negative and evil
1. That loving God is of greater importance than loving our fellow man
2. That loving God is the sole basis on which He will determine to grant salvation
3. That failure to love God {regardless of upstanding moral character, even one as good as Mr. Rogers} will result in eternal torture
This is what fundamentalist Christianity teaches
And again, it is the fundamentalist Christians that I am addressing
I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me - can't say that I really grasp it as of yet
I'll read through a couple more times
I think we share many of the same contentions where fundamentalist Christianity is concerned and, again, the points that I have been trying to make on this thread are relative to the fundamentalist Christian position - not the one that you hold
If I may be petty, in defense of myself, your analogy makes your point unclear. By using Mr. Rogers as an analogy of God sending a Good person to hell, you clouded the point, because Mr. Rogers also happens to be a Christian, which you praise in your OP. So the analogy fails in what you intended it to do because no Christian asserts Mr. Rogers went to hell (which is why I asked "Who sent Mr. Rogers to hell" as your analogy implies). You should have picked a Good non-Christian for your analogy to make a case that it is wrong to send a Good person to hell. Just sayin.Nobody I know of claims that God sent Mr. Rogers to Hell -LEAST OF ALL ME!
Once again, you are misunderstanding me, Doc
What I said is that it is selfish to send a person to Hell for the 'crime' of not accepting Jesus
This is what God does - according to fundamentalist Christianity - He sends people to Hell for not believing
Even when these people lived good lives {lives dedicated to the service of others - lives just like the one Mr. Rogers lived}
I'm all dizzy from your many posts arguing with a tree.If I may be petty, in defense of myself, your analogy makes your point unclear. By using Mr. Rogers as an analogy of God sending a Good person to hell, you clouded the point, because Mr. Rogers also happens to be a Christian, which you praise in your OP. So the analogy fails in what you intended it to do (which is why I asked "Who sent Mr. Rogers to hell" as your analogy implies). You should have picked a Good non-Christian for your analogy to make a case that it is wrong to send a Good person to hell. Just sayin.
I know, which is why I usually let the other person have the last word. But his initial responses fail on so many levels, I could not leave it alone. Sorry for any confusion. Poor Mr. Rogers in heaven shaking his head over the nonsense.I'm all dizzy from your many posts arguing with a tree.
An ordained Christian minister who transcends and rises far above the evils of Christianity
My neighbor, Mr. Rogers