Romans 1 disproves total depravity, inability

Ok, I see my error.
So let me change the question.

You believe it is/would be unfair of God to withhold grace from some right.
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You seem to be painting a picture of the kind of god you want, and you ignore the attributes of God Almighty.
You would say then if He has mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion, according to His will - “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

It is clear that you and other Arminians cannot accept that God is in control. Somehow man must be in control otherwise God is just a monster, because no one can resist His will.
Do you not wonder why He has made you the way you are. A vessel for glory, or one for destruction.

I have never seen you give God alone the glory, for anything pertaining to your salvation. You have to collaborate somehow with God, in order to allow Him to save you.
Jesus and Paul are clear that it is never by human will, yet you and other Arminians say it is always by human will.

And you will try all sorts of tricks and play on words and distortions to try and prove Jesus and Paul wrong.
Here is what you are missing about that passage in Romans. YOu have been taught it is about God having grace randomly on whoever He chooses. But that passage is about God having grace on the rebellious God haters, and His right to have grace on these ungodly people.
Do you see the difference? Random grace as opposed to grace on the haters.
 
What did I change?

You said that it is God's job to present Himself to us in a way that we can believe...
Do you need me to bring the quote here!
Wait, let me bring it anyway:

These are your words, not mine.
Do you even understand the implications of what you are saying! What is the opposite truth if what you said above is true...
"As to why some do not believe , is because God did not do a good enough Job in presenting Himself to those who do not believe.

Now you want to change what you said and pretend I changed what you said.
Your words have consequences.
God presents Himself perfectly to the elect, and they believe.
The minds of others are blinded BY GOD- for a reason!
I changed nothing, It is your mindset that is blind to what I was saying, but i will say exactly the same concept again in different words.
God makes Himself known to all of us and He does that thru the facility of our faith. But his revealtion of Himself to us does not save us, despite that revelation being by faith. Salvation comes by entrusting ourselves to the God who has revealed Himself to us.
Again, knowledge that comes by faith does not save. It enlightens. Salvation comes when we interact with that revealed knowlege and entrust ourselves to God.
 
It seems that you are the one turning humility into a work. You have to humble yourself then God gives you grace. It is deserved, merited or earned.

In the two NT passages, it is talking to Christians.

Jas 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

1Pe 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. 5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." 6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
The Bible does not say that humility in itsself is a work earning God's salvation. But humility is a necessary ingredient to being open to receiving Jesus.
 
Despite Him atoning for all sin...
Who argued differently!
You are merely trying to change what others say again. It is one of the deceitful things you do.
I believe that that Christs atonement is effective for all sin.
I do not believe the atonement is effective for the sin of every individual that ever lived.

Your argument is, that it is effective for every individual which is a false heretical teaching.

And that is my point yes.
The argument of Arminians is that the atonement is for all mankind, every individual.
So your attempt at diverting from your core teaching and changing it to something I believe fails.

So the atonement is not for every person or all people as you and your buddies have been arguing.
Thank you for agreeing, and let your buddies know I thank them for agreeing with you.

Doesn't it feel great when the truth sets you free!
Now you just have to explain what made you better than those who reject it.
Was it because you were not afraid to have your sin exposed? Was it superior understanding? Perhaps the preacher was just very eloquent the day you decided not to reject it.

Be a man and tell us what it is that made you accept it, not being afraid to have your sin exposed while others are afraid to have their sin exposed and reject it.
I must admit it is baffling to watch you read my posts and ignore what i say to you, while pretending I have said something I did not say.
Is this calculated on your part? Or are you trully not understanding what you read? Has Calvinism blinded you from even reading a simple sentence and seeing what it states?
Consider this single statement: redemption is in Christ.
How does that instruct you as to where redemption is? What does it tell you about the person who is not in Christ?
 
Faith that comes from where?
What caused you to have this faith!
Before your conversion, you heard the gospel preached, you read the Bible perhaps.
What about you was so inherently good that you were able to allow your sin to be exposed, by saying you will choose to believe what you heard or read, while another chooses not to believe what he heard or read and have his sin exposed.
Were you just the better man!
You might ask Timothy the same thing:

2Timothy 3:15 And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Mat 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. (26) Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. (27) All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
(28) Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (30) For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Sinners have ample opportunity to exercise faith:

Mat 7:7-8 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. (8) For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Don't ask any in this category though:

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Observe the order of essential elements in the doctrine of Christ which is the foundation of Christian Faith:

  • Repentance from dead works
  • Faith towards God
  • Teaching of baptisms
  • Teaching of laying on of hands
  • Resurrection of the dead
  • Eternal Judgment
Note the effect of unbelief on Israel, and God's ability to graft them in if they don't continue in it:

Rom 11:17-24
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; (18) don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. (19) You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” (20) True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. (22) See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. (23) They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (24) For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Kia Ora
 
I think you are mixing scriptural ideas without regard to context. It is true that Jesus said that some things would not be understood, but where did you read that Revelation 22:17 falls into that category? Much of the Bible is easily understood by the natural intellect, while some things need the spirit illumination to be grasped. On what basis do you categorize Revelation 22;17 as a truth only understoof in the Spirit?
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Revelation 22:17 NIV

I think the Verse is a Valediction for the Book of Revelation, and meant for John's contemporaries; and for us. When the Spirit and the Bride say to us "Come", this is Irresistible Grace. When the one who answers this Effectual Call comes, then they say to us "Come"; this Call is resistible. Those who are thirsty and wish to take the Free Gift, have already been Effectually "Graced" by God; and through their Freedom of Will they shall Come...
 
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The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Revelation 22:17 NIV

I think the Verse is a Valediction for the Book of Revelation, and meant for John's contemporaries; and for us. When the Spirit and the Bride say to us "Come", this is Irresistible Grace. When the one who answers this Effectual Call comes, then they say to us "Come"; this Call is resistible. Those who are thirsty and wish to take the Free Gift, have already been Effectually "Graced" by God; and through their Freedom of Will they shall Come...
You have added to Revelation 22:17 what it does NOT say. Do you think it is God’s wisdom to place any qualifiers on God’s word where God hasn’t ? You limit the scope of “whosoever will” to the elect which the verse DOES NOT SAY. Didn’t God warn us to not take away or add to HIS word ?
 
You have added to Revelation 22:17 what it does NOT say. Do you think it is God’s wisdom to place any qualifiers on God’s word where God hasn’t ? You limit the scope of “whosoever will” to the elect which the verse DOES NOT SAY. Didn’t God warn us to not take away or add to HIS word ?
I wouldn't say that I have added to the Verse; but we can debate the difference between Eisegesis and Exegesis. These are the Theology Boards, so what I've done is used a Systematic Theology; and that's acceptable here. In the past I heard someone ask, "If you could only bring one Verse to an Arab Nation that only allows one Verse, what would it be?" I would bring 2nd Timothy 3:16. So if we only brought Revelation 22:17, you would have a point. But this is not the Lone Verse Forum; we're expected to use All Scripture. Using All Scripture, for instance we can say that All who thirst have already been Graced. We can define what it means to be Graced, we can define being Called, etc. Your objection can be a rabbit trail which would lead me to defend other things besides my first response. If you only took Revelation 22:17 to a Nation like I described, it would be a stupendous choice because it's face value is perfect! But what I am doing is not Eisegeting the Verse, but instead I am teaching a Systematic Theology which leaves the Verse whole. The Systematic Theology is NOT the Verse, so no harm is done to the Verse...

I think I'll spend some time here trying to show people that Eisegesis doesn't take place as often as people claim it does. One thing that bothers me here at CARM, because of what I say, is how often it seems that I have to teach the basics of Understanding the Bible. All Scripture is Good for Doctrine, is as basic as it gets; Pretexting is NOT Good for Doctrine...
 
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I'm not changing the meaning of a word. Humble means humble. The question is, are be saved by humbleness or faith?
If you read and understand the verses on being humble you will understand the clear simple meaning of scripture saying “God gives grace to the humble and resist the proud”. No humility no grace. Humility is the means to grace just like belief and faith and repentance, which Calvinist neuter and dismiss as not their own responsibility to God . Election ( elect according to the foreknowledge of God)does not mean sit down and wait it means get up and get in the spiritual war and follow our king. God tells us to believe. God tells us to place our faith in Jesus. God tells us to repent. God tell us to follow Jesus. No where in any scripture does it say sit and wait to be elected because God told us what we should do NOW.
 
I wouldn't say that I have added to the Verse; but we can debate the difference between Eisegesis and Exegesis here. These are the Theology Boards, so what I have done is used a Systematic Theology; and that's acceptable here. In the past I heard someone ask, "If you could only bring one Verse to an Arab Nation that only allows one Verse, what would it be?" I said I would bring 2nd Timothy 3:16. So if we only brought Revelation 22:17, you would have a point. But this is not the Lone Verse Forum; we're expected to use All Scripture. Using All Scripture, for instance we can say that All who thirst have already been Graced. We can define what it means to be Graced, we can define being Called, etc. Your objection can be a rabbit trail which would lead me to defend other things besides my first response. If you only took Revelation 22:17 to a Nation like I described, it would be a stupendous choice because it's face value is perfect! But what I am doing is not Eisegeting the Verse, but instead I am teaching a Systematic Theology which leaves the Verse whole. The Systematic Theology is NOT the Verse, so no harm is done to the Verse...

I think I'll spend some time here trying to show people that Eisegesis doesn't take place as often as people claim it does...
So changing “ whosoever will” from the verse to mean”election” to support a man made theology not supported by Rev. 22:17 is theology ? I would believe changing God’s word by adding what is NOT in the verse is more akin to demonology than theology IMO.
 
So changing “ whosoever will” from the verse to mean”election” to support a man made theology not supported by Rev. 22:17 is theology ? I would believe changing God’s word by adding what is NOT in the verse is more akin to demonology than theology IMO.
No Brother, as a Systematic Theologian, I don't change the Whosoever Will to the Unconditionally Elect. The Promises of the Gospel are Universal, and Whosoever Believes shall be Saved. Jesus said if the Trodden Soil Believed, he would Save them...

I wouldn't be a very good Systematic Theologian if I didn't believe that. I don't change the Verse; who can do that?
 
Here is what you are missing about that passage in Romans.

Is it possible for you to respond without the condescension?

Is it possible that you might be wrong, and we might be right, or do you consider yourself inerrant and infallible?

YOu have been taught it is about God having grace randomly on whoever He chooses.

No, we have not "been taught" this.
We don't believe it is "randomly".
And "whomever He chooses" comes straight from the BIBLE.
I'm sorry you don't accept the Bible.

But that passage is about God having grace on the rebellious God haters, and His right to have grace on these ungodly people.
Do you see the difference? Random grace as opposed to grace on the haters.

Nobody teaches "random grace".
You should try to lose the straw-man.
 
No Brother, as a Systematic Theologian, I don't change the Whosoever Will to the Unconditionally Elect. The Promises of the Gospel are Universal, and Whosoever Believes shall be Saved. Jesus said if the Trodden Soil Believed, he would Save them...

I wouldn't be a very good Systematic Theologian if I didn't believe that. I don't change the Verse; who can do that?
Finally realized what was bugging me about Revelation 22:17 in the NIV as opposed to Revelation 22:17 in the KJV. Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit-and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say,Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. One who wishes changed the verse from whosoever will. This is how satan works slight changes to God’s word which is accepted and taught as a truth. No thanks. Is this a coincidence that this change supports Calvinism I don’t think so ?
 
Finally realized what was bugging me about Revelation 22:17 in the NIV as opposed to Revelation 22:17 in the KJV. Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit-and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say,Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. One who wishes changed the verse from whosoever will. This is how satan works slight changes to God’s word which is accepted and taught as a truth. No thanks. Is this a coincidence that this change supports Calvinism I don’t think so ?
I think I see what you're saying. Who can change a Verse? You are saying Translators can change a Verse; I get that, look at the NWT...

But I'm not a Translator. All I can do is my best with existing Translations and Concordences. Lexicons? I'll let the Greeksperts delve the deepest. Wishing is unbiblical, so I would just say it's a weaker word for whosoever Wills; that's how I would preach it. Your Wish is my command, or your Will is my command. I don't think I would be bothered by it; unless my Weaker Brother was bothered by it...
 
I think I see what you're saying. Who can change a Verse? You are saying Translators can change a Verse; I get that, look at the NWT...

But I'm not a Translator. All I can do is my best with existing Translations and Concordences. Lexicons? I'll let the Greeksperts delve the deepest. Wishing is unbiblical, so I would just say it's a weaker word for whosoever Wills; that's how I would preach it. Your Wish is my command, or your Will is my command. I don't think I would be bothered by it; unless my Weaker Brother was bothered by it...
I had a conversation with a preacher who preached we are “obtained”by the blood of Jesus( I forget what translation he used) instead of we are “purchased” by the blood of Jesus. Changing “purchased” to o” obtained” by the translators destroys the flow, context, the types,and truth of scripture. I can obtain something without shedding my blood to get it. I have zero confidence in modern translations based on their changing God’s word for their personal agendas,declined morals in society, and the gospel changed from what Jesus taught to mean whatever modern society thinks it should be.
 
I had a conversation with a preacher who preached we are “obtained”by the blood of Jesus( I forget what translation he used) instead of we are “purchased” by the blood of Jesus. Changing “purchased” to o” obtained” by the translators destroys the flow, context, the types,and truth of scripture. I can obtain something without shedding my blood to get it. I have zero confidence in modern translations based on their changing God’s word for their personal agendas,declined morals in society, and the gospel changed from what Jesus taught to mean whatever modern society thinks it should be.
Okay, you win...
 
Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit-and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say,Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. One who wishes changed the verse from whosoever will. This is how satan works slight changes to God’s word which is accepted and taught as a truth. No thanks. Is this a coincidence that this change supports Calvinism I don’t think so ?

One of the reasons we don't have productive discussion here is because people are too free with the "ignore" feature, and stay in their own echo chambers, ignoring the arguments of their opponents.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rev. 22:17 Καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ νύμφη λέγουσιν, Ἔρχου.o καὶ ὁ ἀκούων εἰπάτω, Ἔρχου.p καὶ ὁ διψῶν ἐρχέσθω, ὁ θέλων λαβέτω ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν.

These are all singular participles:

ὁ ἀκούων - "the one who hears", or "the one hearing";
ὁ διψῶν - "the one who thirsts", or "the one thirsting";
ὁ θέλων - "the one who wills/wishes", or "the one willing/wishing"


So the modern translations are perfectly accurate.

Once again, the reason you don't like them is NOT because they are allegedly "corrupted" (they aren't), but because the KJV is sufficiently vague as to allow either intepretation, while the modern translations (and the original Greek) are not.
 
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