Your atheism ends at time of death. No atheeists in hell

[SteveB]

Exactly as you are doing, Steve. Look in the mirror.

And I provide you with the references to check out what I say for yourself.
So, if you're not actually doing that, that's your own fault, not mine.

But nothing you can actually be specific about.

I provide a lot of specifics.
You just dismiss them, because you don't actually want to know the truth.
That's the most obvious part of your posts.

What experiences? I get that you were cured of cancer, but have you looked at the numbers of people who were not?

Yep.
Millions to one, against surviving, or recovering.
WiF presented an article several years ago about the oddity of spontaneous remission. They had absolutely no idea what happened or why. It just happened.
And had I only had a couple occurrences/recurrences, I'd say that his point carried weight, worth considering.

But I experienced 6 surgeries, 5 recurrences, 4 years of chemo, 5 weeks of radiation therapy, a couple hundred diagnostic scans. The last two of which made me extremely ill.
To the point where my doctor said he'd change up my protocol.

Turns out that having several dozen doses of iodine for the CT scan contrast, over the course of 7 years got me seriously ill.

I later learned from another doctor that neuropathy is a serious problem for long term cancer survivors.

Melanoma of the Skin Statistics | CDC

The latest federal data on melanoma cases and deaths.

www.cdc.gov

The problem you're having is that God says he will give life to those who believe him.
It's written in Proverbs,

The spirit of a man will sustain him in his illnesses. But a wounded spirit who can bear?

How does that show God exists?

You'll have to ask God that.
Seems to me that he is doing what he said he would.

2 chronicles 16:9
The Spirit of God is going back and forth throughout the whole world seeking to show himself strong on behalf of those whose hearts are complete towards him.

Sometimes it's not about anyone other than the person who is going through the wringer.
The cool thing is that I got to experience the God described in the bible. I got to experience the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God of David, Samuel, Sampson, and the prophets, Moses, Jesus, and the apostles and first century Jesus followers.

As Jesus said to John, I am a witness of the life of Jesus in my life and the lives of others who are in my life.

And they're witnesses of the grace and mercy and peace of God in my life.

Another really cool passage in 2 Corinthians 12.
2Co 12:9-10 WEB 9 He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, and in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.

So, I'm thinking that I get the opportunity to boast in my weaknesses and show forth the beauty, compassion and love of God through Jesus.

What history?

Really?
So, you never actually studied the history of the past several thousand years of humanity?
Wow!
I had no idea that Britain had reverted to the dark ages.

What have you studied that convinced you the empty tomb actually happened, for example?

European history. From about 400 to 1950.

Can you tell me? Of course not!

Oh, well then. You obviously know everything about everything, so you apparently be d-man, and all knowledge, glory and wisdom dwells with you.

Must be painful to live with such arrogance and ignorance simultaneously.

This is just how you rationalise your blind faith.

Yet another perfect example of your own blindness and faith in your deliberate and willful ignorance.
Your dedication to it is exceedingly impressive.

You were told to believe, and so you do. And now you need to rationalise that blind faith, so we get this.

Further evidence of God's existence.
You're impressive. That you have absolutely nothing but your opinions and yet you're entirely certain that you actually know everything.

Show me I am wrong Steve.

Why?
You do it frequently with every post you make.

Start a thread on the evidence for the empty tomb.

There are dozens of books available for you to read.
Are you telling me that you have never actually read them?
As I recall you saying that you have read the books by J. Warner Wallace and despised them.
There's Mike Licona, Gary Habermas, Craig Lane, Lee Strobel, and several other people who are highly educated and experienced in their respective careers and fields of expertise, who eloquently developed excellent arguments supporting, and corroborating the resurrection of Jesus and the veracity of the bible narrative.


You however have repeatedly stated that you don't actually want to know the truth, so when you decide that you actually want to know the truth, then you'll make the time to learn and engage Jesus on his terms.

Show me history you studied in high school, college and on your own that supports your belief in the empty tomb.

Apparently the history taught in Britain isn't the same history as was taught here in the United states in the 70's through the late 90's.
So, as you don't live in the United states, I'm thinking that you won't be able to find the same texts we used.

And yet Mat 25 tells us he sends billions to suffer for eternity in a lake of fire. How is that not evil?

Yep.
I've experienced a lot of punishments for my youthful stupidity in my childhood.
Not once was it ever a pleasant thing.

Even the bible talks about it in Hebrews 12, and Deuteronomy 8, Proverbs 3, and Revelation 3.
The Hebrews 12 passage states that it's not a pleasant experience.

It's not evil because you deliberately chose to ignore the warnings and discipline that God gave you to draw you back from your destruction.

God explicitly stated
Isa 65:2-3 WEB 2 I have spread out my hands all day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; 3 a people who provoke me to my face continually, ......

So, at what point do you listen to him, and his warnings and turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ?

It is just as astonishing how much God has failed in that regard.

It's your eternity. He's given you everything you need to know him. It's up to you to choose Jesus.

The curious thing about this issue is that your ancestors were convinced, and followed Jesus.

So, why were they too stupid to figure out what you believe is obvious?

Or, why are you too smart to understand what they took the time to learn and actively engage in, and learn through application and experience?


I'm thinking that you're just not as think as bright you are

Almost as though he does not exist.

Then I'd say that the blood line you came from are imbeciles.

Because they had no problem whatsoever with making his acquaintance and learning to follow Jesus.

Great. Start that thread about the empty tomb, and I will learn why you are sure it actually happened.

Why don't you just go out and buy the books which have already been written on the topic?
And you can find the list of books by doing a Google search for
"The case for Jesus resurrection"
I get 13,500,000 hits back.
Looks like the first one is Gary Habermas' book,
The Case for the resurrection of Jesus, from 2004.
There's a link at the top of the Amazon page to a new book by Gary,
Risen Indeed: A historical investigation into the resurrection of Jesus.
It was released last November.

Since you are highly educated, I'm thinking that you likely make more than enough money to afford to buy all those books, and then you can prepare a counter argument to silence all those people who just aren't as smart as you are.

Or do not, and I will be even more certain you just believe it blindly, because you were told to believe it.

I distinctly recall inviting you, and other atheists to do extensive research on the resurrection of Jesus, and then write a paper to counter all the arguments, including the ones from antiquity.

That was at least a few weeks after the forums were restabilized, and updated. So almost 2 years ago now, and several times before they'd crashed in 2019.

Didn't you ever do it?

I was really looking forward to seeing it.

 

[SteveB]

I agree! But here is the thing. I can see the chair. I can feel it.

And I can perceive YHVH's work in and through my life.
And?
Remember, you're the one who keeps saying you know better.
YHVH says that he rejects the proud, and gives grace to the humble.
So, I'm thinking that the problem here is that you have refused to humble yourself.
YHVH's terms, not ours.

I have nothing to suggest God exists, so why do you think I should put my trust in him?

Of course you have nothing. Remember, you're the one who keeps saying that you know better.
As long as you believe that you are wiser, smarter, and more erudite, you have exalted yourself above your actual state.
I.e., you are proud, and arrogant, because you are trusting yourself to be the accurate judge of all reality.

The way you trust a parachute is by seeing other people use them, and so having confidence that the principle is sound, and then carefully checking that what you have in your hand really is a parachute and carefully checking its integrity - or better still have a professional do it for you - before you put it on.

Jesus is the professional.
When you come to him to teach you the proper use, and application of the parachute, you'll find it works perfectly.

You appear to be advocating grabbing any bag that happens to be at hand, and leaping from a plane in the hope that it will save you.

?
And you're the one who has been complaining about your eternity for the past several days. Blaming God for your choice, and then accusing me of being confused because you don't like the wording used to describe your end should you refuse to engage Jesus and follow him.

If it does, that will confirm you were right! That works for you (so far, we have yet to see the parachute open), because you do the blind faith thing.

I do not.

It's a good thing then that I base my belief on what YHVH has explicitly stated and the work he's done in my life.

Your blind faith is based entirely on your beliefs, based on ignorance.
It's genuinely a deadly thing to convince yourself that you're right when you know you have no idea.

How does that work? For the parachute, the ultimate test is whether is gets you to the ground safely. For the chair, it is whether it supports your weight. What is the test for Jesus? How have you judged that you can trust Jesus? What do you rely of Jesus to actually do?

Read the bible and learn for yourself.
He says that he and his Father will come and make their home with you.

I can't think of a better way than to actually live with someone.

They are not mutually exclusive. Something can be both punishment and torture. The dictionary definition clearly states that the infliction of intense pain to punish is torture.:

torture​

noun: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure​

It is kind of pathetic that your argument comes down to this pretence.

I'm not the one who needs toompanidzo to be kolasis.
Nor am I trying to figure out how to justify my sin, so I can make God out to be a monster in order to convince others to send themselves to the lake of fire.

It's Jesus and heaven, or no Jesus and the lake of fire.


I understand that you really want to find the loophole to make it easier for you.

There isn't one!

Otherwise, Jesus never would have gone to the cross and died for our sin.

Mat 26:39 WEB He went forward a little, fell on his face, and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I desire, but what you desire.”

Gal 2:21 WEB I don’t reject the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”

They are not mutually exclusive.


They are not mutually exclusive.

Kolasis is not toompanidzo nor is toompanidzo kolasis.

So, yes actually they are mutually exclusive.

 

[SteveB]

This doesn't explain how you know the important details in the bible are true.

That's because you don't actually want to know for yourself.
Otherwise you would have already engaged Jesus and become acquainted with him.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Your Oneness cultism dies at time of death, as does your belief in divine creators.

As well as the notion that you held any of the 9 professions you've claimed over the years.

You will not be arrogant at the great white judgement throne of Almighty God you will be terrified and crying, but it will avail nothing it is to late your eternity is sealed.

 

[Whatsisface]

That's because you don't actually want to know for yourself.
Otherwise you would have already engaged Jesus and become acquainted with him.

I want to know how you know. You been making these claims about knowing this that and the other, but never back them up. You always avoid saying how you know anything. You're being totally unreasonable.

That's how we know you don't know a thing.

 

[Whatsisface]

You will not be arrogant at the great white judgement throne of Almighty God you will be terrified and crying, but it will avail nothing it is to late your eternity is sealed.

Do you honestly think saying stuff like this will cut any ice with atheists? Do you not have anything better to reach atheists with?

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Do you honestly think saying stuff like this will cut any ice with atheists? Do you not have anything better to reach atheists with?

Only God knows that answer, but they should at least hear the truth.

 

[Whatsisface]

Only God knows that answer, but they should at least hear the truth.

But it doesn't come across as truth. You're making quite a claim, but you're not giving anything to show it true.

I mean, how would you react if I just flat out said that when you die that's it, you're gone. You need to hear the truth.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

But it doesn't come across as truth. You're making quite a claim, but you're not giving anything to show it true.

I mean, how would you react if I just flat out said that when you die that's it, you're gone. You need to hear the truth.

Some people run from truth their whole life all you can do is tell them what’s in their future if they don’t stop running from God and the truth.

 

[Whatsisface]

Some people run from truth their whole life all you can do is tell them what’s in their future if they don’t stop running from God and the truth.

Hmm. In a way, this whole debate comes down to epistemology, how we know things are true. That's why I'm an atheist, despite being exposed to religious thinking, I don't see how we can know if any of it is true.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Hmm. In a way, this whole debate comes down to epistemology, how we know things are true. That's why I'm an atheist, despite being exposed to religious thinking, I don't see how we can know if any of it is true.

I am not one who believes Christianity is without evidence of its validity. The prophets foretold many many prophecies that happened exactly as they prophesied. A great example of a prophecy was given by John 2000 years ago. In the book of Revelation John said no man could buy or sell without the mark of the beast. So how did John know there would be a system that could track every person on the planet ? John told that prophecy before electricity, computers etc. there are many such prophecies in the Bible but most approach God’s word with a biased and closed mind. I believe the best way to know is to honestly and sincerely seek God He is there. Praying God open your heart, mind , and eyes to truth.

 

[Whatsisface]

I am not one who believes Christianity is without evidence of its validity. The prophets foretold many many prophecies that happened exactly as they prophesied. A great example of a prophecy was given by John 2000 years ago. In the book of Revelation John said no man could buy or sell without the mark of the beast. So how did John know there would be a system that could track every person on the planet ? John told that prophecy before electricity, computers etc. there are many such prophecies in the Bible but most approach God’s word with a biased and closed mind. I believe the best way to know is to honestly and sincerely seek God He is there. Praying God open your heart, mind , and eyes to truth.

If you honestly and sincerely seek God with an open heart and mind, is it any surprise that you'd find Him?

If you want to know if something is true or not, is not the best approach to be sceptical and subject said something to unbiased investigation?

Seeking as you say is not unbiased.

 

[SteveB]

I want to know how you know.

And I've been telling you ever since I first showed up on this forum almost 10 years ago now.
Do what Jesus said and then you will gain the same knowledge and experience that I've learned.

You been making these claims about knowing this that and the other, but never back them up.

Actually I have backed up my comments with my cancer diagnosis and recovery, as well as my gunshot wound and recovery. I even invited you to come visit me so I could introduce you to my oncologists and doctors. You not only refused. You then felt cocky and asinine enough to mock them, and my invitation.

So, now you're just lying.

I have given you the opportunity to engage him on his terms and learn for yourself.
As you have spent nearly a decade now refusing to engage him on his terms, you're just excluding yourself from knowing and learning.

As such, there's nobody else to blame you and you alone.

You always avoid saying how you know anything. You're being totally unreasonable.

Nope!
I've repeatedly stated how I know.
I do what Jesus said, that includes reading the bible, praying, engaging in community with others who are learning to follow Jesus and then talking with people like you about Jesus.

That's how we know you don't know a thing.

And yet you are the one who is perishing.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

If you honestly and sincerely seek God with an open heart and mind, is it any surprise that you'd find Him?

If you want to know if something is true or not, is not the best approach to be sceptical and subject said something to unbiased investigation?

Seeking as you say is not unbiased.

Seeking God sincerely and without bias is the only way anyone will ever find God. Remember if I am right(and I am) God is the creator of the heavens and earth. Satan as the father of lies will direct you to the road that leads straight away from God. We are in a spiritual war that most do not even know is happening. The only way anyone will ever find God is to seek Him with their whole heart , because anything else would not be sincerely seeking Him.

 

[Whatsisface]

And I've been telling you ever since I first showed up on this forum almost 10 years ago now.
Do what Jesus said and then you will gain the same knowledge and experience that I've learned.

You're doing it again, not saying how you know. This gives me no good reason to think that you know anything.

Actually I have backed up my comments with my cancer diagnosis and recovery, as well as my gunshot wound and recovery. I even invited you to come visit me so I could introduce you to my oncologists and doctors. You not only refused. You then felt cocky and asinine enough to mock them, and my invitation.

This does not tell me how your doctors know a miracle occurred rather than a natural remission or a response to treatment. Have they actually told you how they know this? How do you know they weren't speaking poetically rather than literally?

To all who may be watching this exchange, I can guarantee that SteveB will not answer my questions, nor will he be openly forthcoming about how he knows a miracle occurred rather than a natural remission, nor will he detail what Jesus said to do, nor will he detail how doing this showed him God exists.

He will just offer excuses.

 

[Whatsisface]

Seeking God sincerely and without bias is the only way anyone will ever find God. Remember if I am right(and I am) God is the creator of the heavens and earth. Satan as the father of lies will direct you to the road that leads straight away from God. We are in a spiritual war that most do not even know is happening. The only way anyone will ever find God is to seek Him with their whole heart , because anything else would not be sincerely seeking Him.

This doesn't take my point into account, that seeking with a whole heart biases you from the start. But I agree that seeking in this biased way is the only way to find God.

 

[shnarkle]

The same reason that there are no muggles in Hogwarts.

I'm not familiar with these terms so your analogy doesn't mean anything to me.

 

[SteveB]

You're doing it again, not saying how you know. This gives me no good reason to think that you know anything.

This does not tell me how your doctors know a miracle occurred rather than a natural remission or a response to treatment. Have they actually told you how they know this? How do you know they weren't speaking poetically rather than literally?

To all who may be watching this exchange, I can guarantee that SteveB will not answer my questions, nor will he be openly forthcoming about how he knows a miracle occurred rather than a natural remission, nor will he detail what Jesus said to do, nor will he detail how doing this showed him God exists.

He will just offer excuses.

And since he's taking to talking to everyone else, but me, let's play his game.

Jesus was quite clear about this.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

How do you actually know that you're living under the same roof as another person...

If you're not able to know that, then you're incredibly young, inexperienced and shouldn't be on this forum talking to adults, about matters Jesus said were simple enough for children to grasp.

Living under the same roof as another person, there's a dynamic that just is.

I would have thought that if you're a human being, then unless you have been living in solitary confinement for your entire life, you should understand the dynamic.

 

[Whatsisface]

Jesus was quite clear about this.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Is this it? Really? This is Incredibly naïve thinking on your part. You are effectively saying, In order to know that God exists, you must first love God.

If I have to point out the problems with this to you, then you have no idea about how to know something is true or not.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Is this it? Really? This is Incredibly naïve thinking on your part. You are effectively saying, In order to know that God exists, you must first love God.

If I have to point out the problems with this to you, then you have no idea about how to know something is true or not.

Rom 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heavenagainst all ungodliness andunrighteousness of men, who hold the truth inunrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 - Because that which may be known of Godis manifest in them; for Godhath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternalpower and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,neither were thankful; butbecame vain in theirimaginations, and their foolishheart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,