Lazarus ....!

God saves those who believe "in Him".

I just finished teaching my students about the difference between "correlation" and "causation".

Yes, God saves those who believe in Him.
The group God saves is the SAME group as the group who believes in Him.
But that does NOT mean that God puts them "in Him" BECAUSE they "choose" to believe.

Election and salvation are not the same thing.
 
The Ephesians were told that they "were without Christ" and they are "now in Christ Jesus".

(Eph 2:11) Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(Eph 2:12) and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

They were positioned in Christ when they believed "in Christ". Once that's accomplished then we are positioned "in Christ" in the heavenlies, beyond space and time, making Eph 1:4 correct in saying that God chose us "in Him" before the foundation of the world.

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You'll notice the context of the red bolded part above. Paul is speaking to them not as random individuals, or Jews, but as gentiles in various gentile nations. They're gentiles, and gentiles were not included in the Mosaic covenant, but they are included in the new covenant.

You'll notice he says "you were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants, having (here it is) NO HOPE. This is not the case in the new covenant. This is the point he's making. This is what 1/2 the New Testament is about.

You're making too much out of the whole "in Christ" thing, and not enough out of the fact gentiles are (for once) included in God's covenants. An individual can fit into several different catagories at 1 time, and he's specifying the catagory he's referring to.
 
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gentiles were not included in the Mosaic covenant, but they are included in the new covenant.
You'll notice he says "you were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants, having (here it is) NO HOPE. This is not the case in the new covenant. This is the point he's making. This is what 1/2 the New Testament is about.
the first covenants/promises were made with/to non-Jews tho (Adam - representing all Mankind, Noah - representing all Mankind)
those things are then fulfilled thru the Jewish specific covenants (and the Abrahamic sort of has a Everyone can be blessed aspect)
 
God saves those who believe in Him.
The group God saves is the SAME group as the group who believes in Him.
But that does NOT mean that God puts them "in Him" BECAUSE they "choose" to believe.
Election and salvation are not the same thing.
God can Love and Hate someone at the same time
is God's Love coercive?
 
the first covenants/promises were made with/to non-Jews tho (Adam - representing all Mankind, Noah - representing all Mankind)
those things are then fulfilled thru the Jewish specific covenants (and the Abrahamic sort of has a Everyone can be blessed aspect)
Right, as well as the curse of working thorny ground, dying and pain in childbirth. God has also never flooded the gentile world again (through rainbows). These are universal among all "nations", although some in Thailand might argue with me on this.

Sacrifices for Jews in the Mosaic covenant were intended for the "hope" (Paul refers to) of being counted as righteous, but they were only for Jews. Gentiles had "no hope" as he says.
 
Are you saying that you can be outside of Christ (a non-believer) and still be chosen?
It says you are chosen in Him which comes about in time at the time of God's choosing.
So when does God choose you "in Him"?
Sure does. By the grace of God. The Bible says He is able to keep you from falling and we know He will lose none.
Then why does Paul even bother to warn us all that we must be diligent if diligence makes no difference to our election?
 
Ya? So what. I was once without Christ. Now I am in Christ because I was chosen from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4
If you were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world then how did get to be "without Christ" if "the Bible says He is able to keep you from falling and we know He will lose none" as you declared earlier.
I would also add the only action in 1:4 is by God. Where do you find human action in 1:4?? You just assume
Can you be chosen "in Him" (Eph 1:4) without the human action of believing "in Him"?
 
I just finished teaching my students about the difference between "correlation" and "causation".
Yes, God saves those who believe in Him.
The group God saves is the SAME group as the group who believes in Him.
But that does NOT mean that God puts them "in Him" BECAUSE they "choose" to believe.
It's a promise from God that He saves those who believe and actively confess Him:
Rom 10:10 "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation."
All of our actions are of our choosing. Our whole legal system in built on that premise unless one is diagnosed as psychologically insane/impaired.
Election and salvation are not the same thing.
I never said they were. It is Calvinists who conflate election and salvation when they claim that God unconditionally elects to save certain individuals.
 
You'll notice the context of the red bolded part above. Paul is speaking to them not as random individuals, or Jews, but as gentiles in various gentile nations. They're gentiles, and gentiles were not included in the Mosaic covenant, but they are included in the new covenant.

You'll notice he says "you were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants, having (here it is) NO HOPE. This is not the case in the new covenant. This is the point he's making. This is what 1/2 the New Testament is about.

You're making too much out of the whole "in Christ" thing, and not enough out of the fact gentiles are (for once) included in God's covenants. An individual can fit into several different catagories at 1 time, and he's specifying the catagory he's referring to.
The Bible declares that there is no difference between Greek and Jew under the New Covenant because we "are all one in Christ Jesus":

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
(Gal 3:28) There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Col 3:11) where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things in all.

I can never ever make too much out of being positioned "in Christ".
 
Are you saying that you can be outside of Christ (a non-believer) and still be chosen?

So when does God choose you "in Him"?

Then why does Paul even bother to warn us all that we must be diligent if diligence makes no difference to our election?
Sure. I was chosen before I existed.

From the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1:4

Paul point is how do we know we are one of the elect? We are diligent. We do not elect ourself by diligence which is basically what your saying.
 
If you were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world then how did get to be "without Christ" if "the Bible says He is able to keep you from falling and we know He will lose none" as you declared earlier.

Can you be chosen "in Him" (Eph 1:4) without the human action of believing "in Him"?
When you answer my question I will happily address yours. Where is human action in Ephesians 1:4??

I changed my mind I will show you how to actually answer a question. Though I shouldn't because you will simply dodge mine.

The answer is yes. See Ephesians 1:4
 
Can you be chosen "in Him" (Eph 1:4) without the human action of believing "in Him"?
Yes, because being Chosen by God is a different Category than Belief in the Truth. Being Chosen by God belongs to the Category of Election, and Belief in the Truth belongs to the Category of Justification...

CARM is all about Categories. It's about the Categories of Conditional Election and Unconditional Election. Conditional Election ties God's Choice and Man's choice at the hip; the two Categories are Salvation. Unconditional Election doesn't tie God's Choice and Man's choice at the hip. Election and Justification are two different words with two different meanings with two different spellings; they are different Categories...

Let's start by admitting the differences between Election and Justification. Election is not Justification; as Works are not Justification Proper, though Works justify. Works do and don't Justify and are Categories of Justification, this is a precedent a person can be Chosen without being in Him. I was Chosen years before I was in Him; so the answer is Yes. I was Chosen while in unbelief...
 
Yes, because being Chosen by God is a different Category than Belief in the Truth. Being Chosen by God belongs to the Category of Election, and Belief in the Truth belongs to the Category of Justification...

CARM is all about Categories. It's about the Categories of Conditional Election and Unconditional Election. Conditional Election ties God's Choice and Man's choice at the hip; the two Categories are Salvation. Unconditional Election doesn't tie God's Choice and Man's choice at the hip. Election and Justification are two different words with two different meanings with two different spellings; they are different Categories...

Let's start by admitting the differences between Election and Justification. Election is not Justification; as Works are not Justification Proper, though Works justify. Works do and don't Justify and are Categories of Justification, this is a precedent a person can be Chosen without being in Him. I was Chosen years before I was in Him; so the answer is Yes. I was Chosen while in unbelief...
How can you square off what I highlighted above with the fact that God "chose us in Him" in Eph 1:4? If I read you correctly you are essentially saying that God chose us without Him which contradicts Eph 1:4.

Ordo Salutis categories are not always mutually exclusive. For example, there is a strong correlation and interplay between Repentance and Sanctification. If Eph 1:4 ties in Election with being positioned "in Christ" then that's what I go with.
 
The Bible declares that there is no difference between Greek and Jew under the New Covenant because we "are all one in Christ Jesus":

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
(Gal 3:28) There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Col 3:11) where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things in all.
Right, that's the new covenant (contract), the old covenant said the opposite. In the old covenant being "in Him" was not an option for gentiles. This fundamental difference in covenants is worth mentioning, and so Paul does (again) in Ephesians. Before they were not "in Him", now they are "in Him".

Imagine what it was like for Paul to travel around the pagan world, trying to convince them to worship a Jewish God. On top of this, the Jewish God was recently executed by crucifixion and rose from the dead, but now He's gone again. That's going to be tough to sell, but he had to do it because gentiles were included. Paul drew the short straw in my opinion.
I can never ever make too much out of being positioned "in Christ".
Ok
 
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When you answer my question I will happily address yours. Where is human action in Ephesians 1:4??
The human action is to believe "in Him". How can one be chosen "in Him" if one is not "in Him"?
I changed my mind I will show you how to actually answer a question. Though I shouldn't because you will simply dodge mine.
What did you change your mind about?
The answer is yes. See Ephesians 1:4
If I read you correctly you are essentially saying that God chose us without Him which contradicts Eph 1:4.

Not only that but according to Eph 2:12, you're saying that God elects aliens, strangers, those without God:

Eph 2:12 and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
 
How can you square off what I highlighted above with the fact that God "chose us in Him" in Eph 1:4? If I read you correctly you are essentially saying that God chose us without Him which contradicts Eph 1:4.

Ordo Salutis categories are not always mutually exclusive. For example, there is a strong correlation and interplay between Repentance and Sanctification. If Eph 1:4 ties in Election with being positioned "in Christ" then that's what I go with.

Creation reveals God and the Things of God. relationships take -- Two ... both sides, Parties ........

God probably didn't mean for us to understand the Bible in kind of a Vacuum ... i n s p a c e, in -- our head (s) ... but with help of our lives lived -- ongoing and evolving -- with / and around others -- who we interact with, and with life Experiences -- all part of Creation.
 
The human action is to believe "in Him". How can one be chosen "in Him" if one is not "in Him"?

What did you change your mind about?

If I read you correctly you are essentially saying that God chose us without Him which contradicts Eph 1:4.

Not only that but according to Eph 2:12, you're saying that God elects aliens, strangers, those without God:

Eph 2:12 and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
It does not say "believe" in Ephesians 1:4. You simply presume.

No, I'm saying exactly what the verse says. "chosen in Him from the foundation of the world"

So again, IN THE TEXT, can you point to any human action in 1:4??
 
Were you always chosen "in Him" from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) until now?
Isn't that what Scripture teaches? Your argument is with the words of Scripture.

4 just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
 
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